Is Your Arsenal Up to the Task?
Aug 30th, 2010 | By Mike | Category: Guns & Ammo, Self Defense | Print This Article
As you sit and marvel at your vast collection of guns, your chest bulging at the immensity of the firepower before you, you may want to squint and consider how it might look to you the moment after the EOTWAWKI. When you consider the staying power versus the firepower, is your arsenal up to the task of digging in or bugging out for the duration?
The debate on the best calibers to own is endless and is mired in personal preferences and prejudices that will leave it eternally unsettled. Still, as you view your collection through the haze of smoke left by mass destruction, you may want to seriously consider which of your guns will see you through the chaos.
During times of scarcity, the quantity of ammo will become more important than the quality of your weapons. The guns you treasure the most may have little value if ammo is not available. Does this mean you will have to completely sacrifice quality and optimum firepower? Not necessarily. It just means you might need to think through your WTSHTF arsenal strategy.
Ammunition shortages are already a reality, especially for odd-ball calibers or surplus marketed guns. Your concern should be whether ammo can be bought or scavenged during times of uncertainty. If you are forced away from your own stockpile, and you run out while you’re on the move, you will want your more popular calibers with you as you are more likely to be able to find ammo replacements.
Your core arsenal should cover your bases for hunting, home defense and long range shooting. It should also address both your survival needs as well as your battle needs. These are different jobs usually requiring different tools. When you can have some guns serve multiple duties, you’re better positioned in the event of ammo shortages and for maneuvering during a bug out.
Your long-range rifle could also serve as your hunting rifle. If you own a 30-06 for hunting, it can also stand in as a competent survival rifle. Add a scope and it can serve, nicely, as a sniper rifle for you. Choosing between your 30-06 and your .308 may be difficult. More enthusiasts will swear by the .308 because the firearms are of higher quality, with some semi-automatic offerings, and it’s considered the best all around gun in its class. Walking into a small town hardware store, you’re more likely to find 30-06 rounds, so that may be the most important consideration when you need to find more ammo quickly.
You won’t find too many arguments about the 12 gauge shotgun as your primary home defense weapon. It is, by far, the most widely available and it offers the greatest amount of flexibility for ammo choice. The choice for a handgun usually comes down to a .357 magnum—again, for ammo availability and its stopping power.
A .22 rim fire rifle will come in handy as the ammo is the most widely available. There is a lot of security in being able to buy ammo in bricks of 500 that can be easily carried. A .22 rifle is somewhat limiting in its loading capacity; however, there are some pretty nice conversion kits that can turn your .22LR fire into a semi-automatic battle-fire weapon using an AR15 or an M16. The kits are relatively cheap and it can greatly improve your overall firepower using inexpensive .22LR ammo.
The bottom line is that, while you don’t need to ignore your favorite guns, if you really want to be prepared for anything, you will want to make sure that the guns you have chambered are the ones with cartridges and ammo that you know will be there for you.
Other articles in this issue:
- For Nutrition on the Run – Eat Like Davey Crockett
- Reality Shock: Your Hospital May be Killing You
- Intro to Chicken Farming
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WHAT!? .357 Magnum is the “Ideal Home defense pistol round” for “ammo availability and its stopping power”?
I disagree(The debate continues). 9mm is readily available, its cheap. Then you have .45cal. Which is a known stopper. WTSHTF .357 magnum will be insanely expensive and scarce. The police shoot 9mm, the military shoots 9mm, and civilians shoot 9mm. I just found 500 rounds of .357 for $320(http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/500rds-357-sig-winchester-usa-125gr-jhp-ammo).. I can purchase 1000 rounds of 9mm for $280 (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-9mm-federal-american-eagle-irt-147gr-tmj-ammo) As far as cost effectiveness goes, and surplus for trading, I say 9mm. Just my $0.02.
Great article btw.
I second this. 9mm over .357 any day of the week!
I third that. 357 magnum is not a cheap ammo to shoot. The price quote your mention is for 357 sig. not S&W 357..Just thought I would point that out because there is a huge differance between the two ammo’s.
My choice would be a Glock G23,,Or Glock G27. (compact and sub-compact respectivly) Both start out life as a .40 calibur, that many police departments use this calibur (cheap, available ammo!) Then go out and buy two barrels for it..A 357 SIG barrel and a 9MM barrel. This way you can shoot three differant calibures in the same hand gun(you just change the barrel which takes seconds..No other parts need to be changed.) This way you have three choices instead of two (in a S&W you can also shoot 38 special) for ammo to find if things get more scarce.
I have shot thousands of rounds through my Glocks…and can say that this would be the handgun I would be living with if SHTF. Just my 2 cents.
I generally agree but you got a couple of things wrong. You have to use different magazines if you want to switch your .40 to 9mm. The .40 mags will work for the .357 Sig though. I think you may have to change the recoil spring too when going to 9mm not sure about .357 Sig.
One thing you never hear in hese endless arguments about caliber is “Terminal Ballistics” read up, that’s what makes the big difference in the end. It’s what the bullet does after it hits the target. If you are one of the people who thinks (a bullet is a bullet) and don’t read enough to know the difference then by all means buy the largest caliber you can carry because the larger calibers are marginally more effective with the cheap full metal jacket rounds that people who think like this use!
Have to agree, also a we reload. Check out the lever action 38-357 saddle rifles, mine recoils less than my 40 sig (with drop in 357sig barrel, also a nice combo).. just my two cents.
Though the .357 Mag is the best in 1shot stopping power and will bring down a bear if needed, it is limited in the fact that ammunition is more scarce and insanely expensive. I reload so it doesn’t really affect me. I would opt for the 9mm for back up, for the same reasons listed that it is readily avail. prices are coming down on 9mm again, police and military as well as many civilians are shooting 9mm. I have both and ammo for both, but if I had to bug the 9mm would be easier to procure ammo for.
This is definitly a, “where you live” kind of thing. I mean the where I live is mostly open country and I was seriously looking at 45′s ( I have pretty much every thing else) and then I went to “one more gun shop”.
I saw an AK sitting on the rack and I thought about where I live and the utility of the rifle versus pistol. The rifle wins hands down. Every day that I go to work ( oil fields ), and then come home (pastures and open country) I know that I made the right descision. I guess if I lived in a city WSHTF, I might have bought that pistol but out here rifles rule. Just a thought.
Here we (excuse me,,, I) go again. Guilty to a fault (as I own all of the above) I love my SAA 357, unlike booze or flying, I really beleive that chicks dig the 357, (not exactly me), nothing firm, just a feeling I get.
Also have a M1911, for business and a 9mm glock.
Own 30.06′s and almost all rifles are .30 to standardize reloading. That includes 7.62 x 39 (can be a little sloppy but at 100yds it works)
The good thing about 7.62 x 39 and 9mm is that in the event this ridiculous gov we have bans ammo (again), the afformentioned calibers are the most popular on the Chicom and Russian black market. A revelation I came to after watching the LA Riots and how the gov “protected” the citizens by disarming them so criminals had the only ammo and guns. Same happened in Katrina. Liberals in control both places. Take note, arm appropriately, be ready.
The debate could rage on. Everyone has their “zombie guns” and won’t be swayed away from them. 357′s are exceptional survival weapons. They are reliable with little maintainability and you can always find a companion lever action carbine as your primary long gun. You miss the point about the 357. 357′s also fire 38 special, probably the most widely available ammunition on the market. While you train (which I hope you do if you consider yourself to be even MARGINAL with a firearm) you can fire inexpensive 38 wadcutters. You don’t waste your money on 357. Sure, they make big holes. They also have terrible recoil. You pack a 357 (I like the Ruger GP100) with a backup (again Ruger, SP101) and a lever action rifle. All simple, all dependable and all chambered to the same caliber. But you don’t carry 357. You carry 38 +p. core-locked JHP. Outstanding lethality, minimal over penetration and reduced recoil which facilitates that ALWAYS to be expected 2nd round. Look at the ballistics. 38/357 is the same family as 9mm. Being revolver rounds, depending on manufacture, they may have a slower burning powder but they tend to provide more of it. I used to carry a Sig P220 45. I loved that pistol. I can’t afford to take it to the range anymore. I switched over to a Glock 17 as my service pistol. I can get 9mm ball at Wally World for $10 per 50. I can afford that to train. The true “zombie gun” though is the 357. It’s Reliable. It’s powerful. If you can’t afford to train with your firearm at LEAST once a month you are ineffectual. On top of all the praises I’ve voiced for the 357, you can definitely afford a box of 38 wadcutters once a month. If you can’t I suggest you look into archery. USSF (Ret)
Understood, but one very important point!!!
357′s will shoot 38′s BUT NEVER THE OTHER WAY AROUND. 357′s will fit in you 38 and when you pull the trigger the extra powder (Magnum) may give you a surprise.
One other thing: You can download the powders on reloads to under 800 fps and utilize your own lead cast bullets without fouling your barrels. That trick is not specific to 357 but wheel guns in general.
Lands and grooves in automatics will foul without copper jacketed rounds.
With all the discussion about defensive weapons and the types of ammo to keep on hand, I’d like to share my thoughts on the 12 ga. shotgun. In a SHTF environment with multiple targets under the most adverse conditions, accuracy for the most part, is out the window. I’d speculate that most shots are going to completely miss or will not hit with instant stopping power during a “fight or flight” situation. A 12 ga shotgun, pump or autoloader, with extended magazine, loaded with a 00 or #1 buckshot would be my primary choice under these circumstances. Consider that each 12ga 00 buck holds 9 pellets and a 5 round mag extension could give you a loaded capacity of 10 + 1 in the chamber. Thats 99 pellets downrange in seconds, verses the capacity of your AK, Glock, etc. Your stopping power would be devastating to a group of attackers, and the field of coverage of your shot pattern would expand with distance, with serious lethal power out 75 yards and beyond. There’s my 2 cts.
Very nice article! I have a .22 cal conversion for my AR-15 with a dedicated barrel. It is like having 2 guns in one. Training and familiarity on the same base rifle is a plus. Changing caliber is easy enough.
I own 30.06 and .308, as well as .357 and 9mm. Plus a few 7.62 x 39′s. My thought is 5.56, .308, and 9mm are universal US military. Surplus ammo is quite plentiful, and later on “battle field surplus” for a common caliber will be most useful.
7.62 x 39mm is still cheaper as are the weapons that use them. The SKS, for example, is a solid, easy to use, durable weapon, that doesnt require extensive training for those who are relatively new to the survival gun world . By shopping around you may find that buying 2 of them is still cheaper than one AR-15 or M1A/M-14. Surplus grade military ammo is still plentiful (but shows signs of drying up) from the former Soviet bloc and ChiCom countries. The SKS should be considered as a good candidate for a ‘stash’ weapon. Off sight with a good supply of ammo. I have two. Having 2 weapons stashed in a remote location with ammo is good, or one weapon with a complete set of replacement/repair parts.
12 ga shotgun. Single shot/double barrel/over-under, pump, or semi auto, all are very good. Choose as your budget allows. As always, become proficient in your platform. Reloading shotshells is still an economical option. Most suppliers dont give it a second look unless you are buying a huge amount at one time. Another consideration is purchasing large quantity of off the shelf “Dove and Skeet Load” available at most big box stores. No one bats an eye at someone buying the 250 – 400 rounds ‘package’ of the #6, #7, #8 loads. These are great for survival food source. But, once you have them home, opening them up and replacing the bird shot with standard BB’s, or even larger is quite easy. “Wrist Rocket “(sling shot) type ball bearing ammo works very well for a very heavy ‘Buck Shot’. If you are creative, remove the lead bird shot, melt it down, and cast your own slugs or ball loads. Granted, lighter bird shot loads dont have the full power as off the shelf slugs, but I think you will be quite effective at normal ranges with your ‘homemade’ ammo.
Just a few thoughts with a different perspective to add to your already informative ‘lesson’.
My father grew up during the depression and they could not afford to buy the expensive slugs for dear hunting with a shotgun. What they did was open the top of a birdshot round and poor molten wax into into it, then close the crimp back up. It works just like a slug, I have tried this myself and put one through a 6″ fence post.
Rick
Some have concerns about lead fouling shooting .22lr in the AR barrel. I have shot several thousand without a problem. Of course you need to clean your weapon occasionally! I have a dedicated barrel for .22lr and thats all I use it for. I switch uppers for .223. As far as accuracy: Ive shot many squirrel/chip monk ‘targets’ at up to 25 yards with much more hits than misses. Although not as accurate as my single shot, target, scoped, .22lr (both JC Higgins & Winchester), this is used as a survival rifle. It gives me a little more versatility and a lot more ammo.
I have never had the problem of .22lr yaw (tumbling), or any indication of ‘Key hole”. If this seems to be a problem, I would first try a variety of ammo. If no change I would have the barrel check by a gunsmith experienced with AR systems, as barrel gauging is somewhat different on this platform.
I have to agree, the .357 is a very poor choice for a defensive handgun. Personally, I don’t like the 9mm and prefer the .40 S&W or a .45 auto.
Remember that your sidearm is a last ditch defensive weapon, you should not need thousands of rounds for it. If you are going fror your handgun it probably means that you are out of primary weapon ammo in a firefight and the situation is going to be over, one way or the other, in a few mins anyway.
Your shotgun or rifle is your primary weapon and the only reason to ever just have a handgun at your disposal is if you are in a concealment situation away from a safety zone. Don’t get me wrong, your combat handgun is very important but it is and will always remain a secondary weapon for may reasons.
One more comment on .22 conversions for assault rifles. The most common is of course the rimfire conversion for AR-15 rifles. This is an extremely poor choice for a game rifle because it is inaccurate and can be detrimental to your primary weapon. The twist in and AR-15 (.223 or 5.56 NATO) is not suited to the 36-40 grain rimfire ammo, the bullets typically keyhole in targets more than 25′ away, the begin to tumble almost immediately. Not only does this give you very poor accuracy which might cost you a meal or two, it also means you waste more precious ammo on misses. More importantly, these soft, lead rimfire bullets can shave off led when it goes by the small gas port opening in your barrel. Gas behind this the bullet passes through this opening and actuates the rifles bolt when shooting standard ammo and if you clog it up with little bits of lead from shooting .22 rimfire rounds through it, it may malfunction in a life threatening situation.
.22 rimfire rifles are cheap, buy a dedicated game weapon and learn to shoot it like every round counts. A good rimfire rifle can be had for $200 brand new and that’s a Ruger 10/22, you can pick up a bolt action for half that .
Rick
Ranger Ric, ditto on most of what you say. I would add, however, that I have a Ceiner conversion kit for my AR and have never seen a keyhole. I have taken rabbits at 100 yards with no problem–with a holographic sight. It’s just a matter of finding POI for .22 rimfire after everything is sighted for .223. At one hundred yards, that’s about a 4 inch drop and to the right to compensate for slower rpm. After five bricks, I haven’t seen any damage and no change in accuracy with .223. Put the red dot right on an aim for the feet for .223 or left one rabbit-length and high half-a-rabbit for .22 LR and you got supper.
I should add that I use copper coated .22LR and clean the gas tube as a matter of course. Also, although the conversion kit is a good field expedient means of traveling light and occasionally taking game up close, I use a dedicated .22LR for serious hunting.
How many of you have just one handgun? Not many of you I bet. I already have a 9mm and my budget is limited. So, for a second weapon, I chose the 357 for a few reasons.
1. It has ample stopping power
2. It will also chamber 38 sp (providing a flexibility for available ammo)
3. I like revolvers. Day in and day out, they are dependable
Everyone here made some excellent points but the bottom line is don’t box yourself in and decide whats right for your situation.
The .357 is a fine shooter. It is accurate, can take game up to deer and it does have the ability to chamber .38 special which gives it a nice double duty. However, as a defensive weapon it is a poor choice for many reasons.
1. Size, weight and bulkiness of the weapon makes it a poor choice for concealed carry unless you are a large person in winter clothes or a suit.
2. Recoil makes a double tap or quick follow up shot impossible except for large framed, highly trained personnel.
3. Limited capacity of six rounds is simply not acceptable for a combat handgun unless it is your backup piece.
4. Reloading a revolver is a slow process. Even highly trained personnel using speed loaders can’t reload as fast as a mag change in a semi auto.
5. The .357 has extreme over penetration, if anyone is behind the perp you shoot, they are going to die as well. It will go through a refrigerator, an exterior wall and still kill someone outside.
The .357 is a fine weapon in many respects. It has a lot of positive aspects and there is nothing wrong with owning one along with a combat handgun but they are not one in the same. There is are many reasons every police department and military organization in the world issue high cap autos and not magnum revolvers.
Rick
Thanks for all of the good information!
I have a 357 six shooter and have always shot 38 specials in it up to a few weeks ago when my husband loaded it with 357′s. A problem developed though that you may want to consider before switch amo with the 357 to 38′s. It regroves the barrel. My 357 began to misfire after the third 357 bullet. I will have to take it to a gun smith to be fixed or be patient and shot 357′s in it untill the barrel is regroved.
Rita,
Please explain what you mean by “regrooves the barrel.” I have several .357 Mag wheel guns of different manufacturers and have interchangeably fired .357 Mag and .38 Spcl without problem. I cannot understand how .357 ammo, either copper jacketed or lead bullet could possibly change the twist in a hardened steel barrel. The hardness difference is too great.
Are you saying that you used to shoot it accurately with .38 Spcl, and now find it difficult to shoot with the same accuracy with .38′s? That is most likely due to “learned” flinching from the recoil of the .357 that is now being carried over to the .38. The only problem with firing .38 Spcl in a .357 comes with the deposition of a ring in each chamber just ahead of the .38 cartridge case. Because the .38 Spcl case is shorter than the .357 Mag , this can form a deposit ring making it difficult if not impossible to properly chamber a .357 Mag until each chamber of the cylinder is thoroughly cleaned. I cannot understand in any manner how interchanging ammunition could cause the revolver to “misfire.”
Please explain ‘regroove’, I am not familiar with the term. I have shot 38sp, 38+P, 357 all mixed in the same cylinder. For training purposes/flinch control, I often load randomly 38 and 357 in the same cylinder.
Ranger_Ric
Your problems are valid but can be worked around.
1. Problem: Size, weight and bulkiness. My response: There are many .357 revolvers offered that are small and/or light weight. For example the S&W Model 60 (6-shot) weights only 22.6 oz; Model 640 (5-shot) weights only 23 oz; Model M327MP 4-inch (8-shot) weights only 26.5 oz; or, the Taurus Tracker 4-inch (7-shot) which weighs only 24 oz.
2. Problem: Recoil. My response: Buy one that’s ported or buy “reduced recoil” ammo (like Remington Golden Saber) or use .38 ammo or use one of the many 110 grain .357 mag that is available.
3. Problem: Limited capacity of six rounds. My response: There are many .357 mag revolvers that have a 7 and even 8 round capacity. The 8-shot revolver has as many rounds as a lot of the high-priced .45 ACP semis. In fact, one of my favorite .357 revolvers is the S&W Model 627 which I carry when hiking in bear country.
4. Problem: Reloading a revolver is a slow process. I believe (hand) reloading a magazine for a semi auto is slower. Besides, you can buy speed loaders for your .357 mag revolver (I have ten for my Taurus Tracker – that’s a total of 70 rounds plus what is already in my revolver – another 7 rounds for a total of 77 rounds).
5. Problem: The .357 has extreme over penetration. My response: Ammo selection can overcome this problem as you can buy reduced velocity .357 mag loads or use .38 ammo or use 110 grain 357s.
Best regards to you.
Like Doc Holiday said: For problem number three, ” I have two guns, one for each of you…..”
raykenn, reloaders like the .357, too. Unlike semi-autos like .40′s and 9mm’s, straight-shanked cartridges for revolvers head-space on the rim rather than the case-head. That means you can get more reloads from the same case and they are more durable because the case wall is thicker. For a number of reasons that makes reloading .38 and .357 cheaper and easier. You can also go with reduced loads for special purposes with a revolver while that option is severely restricted in semi-autos. If you reload, you will want at least one revolver. For bullet options, cast bullets and recycling lead–there are few options better than .357.
Very good points. I have also made 357 shot shells. Primer and less powder. Cardboard spacer made using a ‘sharpened’ empty case and pressed or tapped thru poster paper. From the bottom primer, powder, cardboard, shot, cardboard. I then dribble a little wax on top to hold it together and make it waterproof! Great for close small games, and quite quiet!
Availble ammo, Could also mean reloading/handloads, not the always the most portable but there are kits that fit very nicely in a backpack, and takes up less space then your folding Shovel. For most Pistol Cal. 1 lb of powder can make more than a 1000 rounds. Primers come in boxes of a 100 and 1000. The real weight is the bulletts, depending on the Cal, and grain weight it can add up quick. Depending on Cal you may want to find a mold for you bullets, and you can find lead almost any where weel weights, battery tremals, so on, and make your own. The Hard part will be your brass I know if I am in a fire fight I am not thinking about stopping to clean up after myself. Once it is over that few secounds to clean up could mean having ammo for the next one or not. Just food for thought.
There are lots of choices that can be made when it comes to firearms. To me it depends on what you can afford, where you live, and how much space you have.
I for one do not have a lot of extra money so I have had to build my arsenal on the cheep. I have a total of 3 pistols, 2 carbines, 1 rifle and a shotgun. My total cost for all these is about what I would have paid for an AR style rifle. To keep it simple I have .22, 9mm, 40S&W and 12 gage ammo that I am stock piling. I have a carbine and a pistol that shoot 9mm, a carbine and a pistol that shoot 40 (the magazines are interchangeable) and a rifle and pistol that shoot .22. I have a shotgun for hunting but am looking for one for self defense. On my budget I can buy a lot more ammo in these calibers. The carbines are good out to about 100 yards. Where I live is mostly woods, most game around here is taken at less than 100 yards. In a pinch I can take game with the forty. I would love to have a .30.06 but do not have the funds. With what I have I can fit both carbines and two pistols in one gun case if I need to bug out. The cases of ammo that I have do not take up much space which leaves more room for other supplies incase of a bugout.
One of the best rifle’s I’ve come across for survival would be the Kel-Tec SU-22. I love .22 LRs and the 26 round magazine capacity is very nice. Plus you can throw a pistol grip and telescoping stock on it so it has the visual effect of an AR-15. Found a nice 4×32 scope at Cheaper than Dirt for $80. All in all I’ve spent about $630 for the rifle and upgrades. Or if you like rifle grips, it can be folded in half and neatly stored in a back pack or ruck sack, along with 500-1,000 rounds.
Ruger 10/22′s have gone up in price and the cost of upgrading them isn’t cost effective anymore. But they are plentiful and parts would be easier to come by. An investment can turn a 10/22 into a bullpup with 50 round magazines, compact with plenty of ammo.
This one is exotic, but the Calico M-100 .22 LR carbine is freaking sweet. 100 round rotary magazine, bullpup design, folding stock and easy to adjust sites. One nice thing about the rotary magazine is the spring can be released for long term storage, though having to wind up a magazine can break the spring over time and/or bring about jamming problems.
Though, I also love my AR-15 carbine. Considering the .223 and/or 5.56mm NATO round is very plentiful and so are parts AR-15/M-16/M-4 parts, repair wouldn’t be too big of an issue either. Hallow points increase the stopping power of the .223/5.56 and it can be used for CQB, hunting and/or sniping if needs be.
As Gorg6974 mentioned, reloading is an important aspect to remember. Can’t reload .22 LRs, but other rounds can be.
Everyone has preference, but thinking about ammo and parts availability is important. Traveling as light and powerful as possible is good to think about.
Aguila makes a .22 LR round that produces around 200 pounds of energy with a 40 grain bullet traveling 1,470 fps, I bought 2,000 last year. That’s nearly twice the amount of energy of lighter/cheaper .22 LR rounds.
If you go with .22 LRs, check the ballistic energy for the rounds, plug in the grain and velocity into this calculator to compare the energy of a round.
I hope to later purchase the Kel-Tec PMR-30, .22 Magnum pistol with 30 rounds is just a pleasant idea for survival.
The .45 has been the defacto military standard for decades. Is that no longer true? I’ve also heard that police are switching from 9mm to the hotter .40S&W. Thoughts?
The Ruger model 10/22 is a sweet little semi-auto that is light, accurate, comes with a 10 round clip (30 round, piggy back clips available) and won’t break the bank. Add a 4x scope and small game out to 50+ yards is dinner while bad guys are going to have to wade through a hail of lead (NO, it’s not my primary deer/battle rifle nor should it be yours).
.40 S&W is a fine round. Very hard hitting. While .357 mag has the best One-shot stops, the .40 S&W is a very close second from what I have researched. So it is probably better ballistically than .45 and comes in a smaller round, which means more rounds in the magazine.
I took it even one step further and went with a 9mm. The .40 round generates around 500 ft lbs of energy and most 9mm generate around 400 or so even with +P and +P+ loads. However, I have looked into Buffalo Bore 9mm rounds and they generate 500 ft lbs with their 115 grain +P+ Gold Dot hollow point. The 9mm round, of course is even smaller than the .40. A Glock 23 has a 13 round mag capacity. A Glock 19 has a 15 round mag capacity. Plus the Glock 19 can take higher-cap mags, so what I do is carry the 15 round mag in the pistol and two 17-round Glock 17 mags as backup. So with a chambered pistol, that gives me a total of 50 rounds ready to rock. Pretty sweet.
well there are a couple of good points here. one point that i think should be hammered home is to talk to the people you are going to be working / living / surviving with. example, i have two younger brothers we have discussed this topic at great lengths. now my military background holds the most weight in this disscussion but i am always open to new ideas. for example my youngest brother matt convinced me to switch out my beloved 1911a1 for a new glock 23 in 40 sw…that took some convincing i got to tell you as i have used the 1911 in combat but in truth the 40 is hot and the glock a better gun.
now im not going to give a lecture on what gun is or isnt the right one for the job. i think that is up to the individual, but unless you are planning on going it alone then talk to the people that you are going to be with and come up with a plan…think of the hassels if you have several different weapons to feed….a m4 here an ak 47 there and a hk 91 in the middle, what a pain in the ass that would be….(oh yea please note 7.62 x 39 warsaw and 7.62x 51 nato ARE NOT interchangable) you see my point. what you want to do is have a sit down and decide what calibers you and all your family will want to maintain as your primary defence / hunting weapons. you may even want to have two seperate rifles for the two jobs, we do….but try to be as much on the same page as those around you…
An AK variant rifle for unstoppability and low maintenance factor, chambered in .223 if possible as it is probably the most available ammo between police, military and civilians. My choice is a Saiga .223. It will fire 5.56.
A Glock pistol, for high capacity and unstoppability, low maintenance. All calibers available are good enough.
A .22 rifle or target pistol for hunting small game, as they are more readily available for food.
A 12 gauge shotgun for home defense using 00 buck and for hunting larger game using slugs.
Stock up on ammo while still available!
SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE!! Here in So. Cal, we had a run on ammo not long ago. I could not find ANY .22, 223/556, 30-06, 308, 9mm, 45acp, 40s&w. Nothing that police or military uses. We’ve kinda been sold the idea that since military or leo use it that it will be available, but when EVERYONE buys all the same guns you end up with a shortage. I had NO problem finding 300 win mag, 303 British, or 762x54R. Don’t get me wrong, I have firearms chambered in 223, 9mm, 45acp, 12 gauge and so on. Just don’t get bogged down in which caliber has the best ballistics because that argument falls to pieces when you’re out of ammo and NO store has any.
When all the stores are closed, replacement ammo will come from barter or the battlefield (presuming you win the fight). Stick with common military/police calibers unless you want to learn to use a new weapon (the one that matches the ammo you find).
Good point prsmith. In the worst case the best test for caliber choice availability is what is going to be most common under the worst circumstances. That means you’ll have to settle for what you can find in the ruins of Wal-Mart and what will be found on the battle field. That means military calibers will be most prominent bar none! Of the 635 million firearms on earth, well over half are chambered for military calibers and most ammunition manufactured on the planet will be for them. Recent shortages of ammo components like primers, etc in the US came about for two reasons: there was a ‘surge’ in Afghanistan which called for manufacturers to dedicate time and resources to concentrating on the needs of the military and Congress just passed new laws affecting shipping of such items from on-line sources. Now those two issues have been settled, it’s time to stockpile again. Things can easily change again with little notice or warning. No matter what happens, nothing will change the fact that military ammo will be available when nothing else is. The bad news is that war nearby makes it most available; the good news is–if you really need it, when you need it most–there will be plenty laying around.
my arsenal spans many types of weapons everyone in my house owns a shotgun my wife and daughter have 20ga my son and i have 12 ga with fixed modified choke barrels i like this barrel for 2 reasons 1 it hols a decent pattern 2 it allows for the shooting of slugs i also keep on had a muzzleloader not one of the newer types that specific about ammo but one that can be loaded up with anything from broken glass to small pebbles to bbs along with this i have a bullet mold and powder of course powder can be robbed from other ammo collected along the way and the lead melted down to make bullets of course thats last resort stuff we also have a few 22lr along with a 9mm pistol and carbine for my wife and daughter while my son and i have 357s then theres 2 sks rifles and several highpowered deer rifles in these i favor the 150 grain ballistic tip ammo that will hit hard and fragment upon entering a a body ive shot several animals while hunting with this type of ammo and the damage it can cause is just devastating
Use a .22 to take down an assailant with a bigger caliber weapon. Then take his weapon and ammo. Move on to the next assailant and take his gun and ammo, and so on, and so on, and so on. Then you’ll have a small arsenal to call your own.
Very simple. You go from a .22 to a 9MM to a rifle or shotgun, to a semi-automatic, to an auto-matic to a rocket launcher.
That’s what they did in the movie Defiance.
As well as the classic 80′s flick “Red Dawn”…
Not sure how well it would work in real life however…
the WW2 Liberator pistol (cal.45 single shot) was designed just for this scenario, cheap stamped steel designed for single use (although they were capable of being reloaded)- find a lone German, kill him, take his weapons and ammo, move on, kill more of the enemy
yes, that would work as long as the guy with the better weapons found out what you were doing only too late….
If not, you would then be in a world of hurt…..
We wife and 2 sons own 6 22 rifles and 2 pistols. We have stocked up with 10,000 rounds. We also have 3 308 rifles one of them a M14 that includes about 4,000 rounds. We are building our second 12ga 870 for up close and personal. 1 have a Glock 45acp, a 300wsm and two Russian 7.62×54 with about 600 rounds. We reload and are collecting powder and primers along with bullet molds to use with old wheel weights if we have too. If money was no object I would buy commercial bullets in bulk but money is tight. Most of the rifles and ammo were procured before the prices went crazy. I encourage people to get the components for reloading in case the SHTF.
Jager – I admire your honesty and openness AND I hope Homeland Security or the ATF isn’t reading the posts on this website; otherwise you may get a surprise visit soon.
a simple muzzle loader can be made from a single shot shotgun in any caliber all youve got to do is have 1 empty shell for it some 209 shotgun primers powder and some cloth for patches first take empty shotshell cut plastic off this shell prefferably a high brass take punch and push out primer then replace with new primer put shell in gun close barrel next pour measured amount of powder down barrel cut cloth to size of end of barrel take small dowel rod or fishin pole end and tampdown then for shot you can shoot a variety of diferent things for shot i/e broken glass ,bbs , small pebbles , rock salt , metal shavings , wire, all of which have a nasty effect on an enemy or game animal powder can be had from other ammo but watch using rifle or pistol powder as they differ from muzzle loader powder and shotgun powder i use smaller amounts of rifle and pistol powder but ive also tried this out for myself already THIS SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN A SURVIVAL SITUATION NOT TO BE PLAYED WITH AS A LAST RESORT ONLY have fun
I noticed the “love” of the 9mm on this site. Does anyone recall why the FBI tested and rejected the 9mm, the .357 mag, and the .45 ACP? Here is the short version: On April 11, 1986, eight FBI agents had a shootout with two bank robbers in Miami, Florida. Of the eight agents, three used a 9mm, three used a .357, and one used a .38 (the eighth agent’s caliber was not identified). Because eight agents against two bank robbers (a 4 to 1 odds) ended in the death of two agents and five agents wounded, the FBI did a very extensive study of the 9mm and the .45 ACP. Agent John Hall decided that the 10mm was also to be tested but because the recoil is a bit too harsh, reduced velocity 10mm ammunition was used and become the handgun of choice for the FBI. It wasn’t long after that that Smith & Wesson came up with the .40 cal which is now used by the FBI, Homeland Security, and the US Marshall’s Office. In addition, I know that the police in Houston and Dallas favor the 40 cal, especially their SWAT. The interesting thing is that the FBI, after extensive testing, rejected the 9mm, the .357 mag, the .38, and the .45 ACP and selected the .40 cal.
Although I like the .40 cal, my choice is the .45 ACP semi-auto (I have two) and the .357 mag (I have five). Most of the time I carry a .357 mag revolver; however, when I feel that I might need extra firepower, I carry my Glock .45 ACP. I don’t believe you can go wrong owning a .45 ACP or a .357 mag (or both). I don’t consider the cost of ammo since we’re talking about saving a life. And, as far as the availability of ammo goes, I’ve found plenty of .45 and .357 ammo available and at what I consider a reasonable price (although it is harder these days to find the “most” popular ammo like Hornaday).
Here are some prices that I gleamed from Midway USA — Double Tap box of 50 of 9 mm is $38.49 and .45 ACP is $43.49, a difference of $5 or 10 cents per bullet. To me, the dollar difference is immaterial. And, .357 ammo is $40.99 for a box of 50, a difference of $2.50 or 5 cents each compared to the 9mm, and again, the dollar difference is immaterial to me.
One may wonder why I have two very different handguns. It’s simple. I like the Glock .45 ACP for its firepower (standard magazine of 13 plus one in the chamber) and for its stopping power. I like my .357 mag for its stopping power (self-defense), flexibility (also uses .38) and versatility (I can hunt with my .357 Marlin lever action using 180 or 200 grain ammo).
The bottom line is that the single most important factor is not the choice of the caliber but accuracy ability (practice, practice, practice). A well placed .22 cal will kill just as effectively as a much larger caliber. Reminds me of the three most important things regarding self-defense: shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement!
Just my two cents worth.
In my experiense as a retired Army senior NCO and a FFL dealer, the best weapons for survival are any weapon used by police and military personel because there will always be plenty of ammo available. There are two reason police prefer the 40 cal.. (1) More firepower than a 45acp. (2) More knock-down power than a 9mm. The Glock is a favorite with the cops because it dosn’t weigh much with all the equipment they carry on their gunbelts. I carry a Ruger P-90 in 45acp for personal protection.
I sell alot of AR-15′s for the same reason and I keep them for my personal survival.
Folks,
I’d like to weigh in here to stress a really important point, and that is it does not matter how many guns you got, when the doo-doo hits the oscillating room-cooling device, the first thing that will go bye-bye is ammo for every gun, just like food in the grocery stores. So your smart alternative is rolling your own so to speak.
I have been doing so for 30+ years and saving up my supplies and components over the years. It is just part of being self sufficient. So what it entails is a pretty good investment in hardware, a few books, time, and the necessary supplies. Oh yeah it is going to take a lot of TIME! THAT IS WHAT YOU DO ON THOSE LONG COLD DARK WINTER NIGHTS, YOU HUNKER DOWN WITH A HOT CUP OF TEA OR COFFEE AND GET TO IT.
If you shoot a lot and frequent ranges look for brass laying around on the ground that you might be able to use and or trade with someone who might need that caliber of empty brass. If you have a good friend or close by family member you might consider pooling your resources to set up your reloading room together. So here is a short list of things to consider.
A good clean work area/reloading room to set everything up and store your goods. IT IS GOOD IF YOU CAN LEAVE EVERYTHING SET UP UNTIL YOU ARE DONE.
A good sturdy desk or bench to set up your reloading tool and equipment.
A single stage or progressive reloading press depending on the volume of shooting and reloading you intend to do.
A shot shell reloader for your Gauge of shotgun, and all of the necessary components to reload those empty shells.
Die sets and bases or base plates for the calibers you shoot.
Some kind of a tumbler or cleaner to clean the empty cases. Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
A couple of good reloading books so you can study the MANY kinds of loads for your calibers.
Then you want to look at the types and availability of powder, primers, bullets etc, and if you have not been saving your empty brass, good quality brass cases and their intended use, be it target practice, hunting or self defense.
A good scale and powder measure.
Case trimming tools.
empty boxes for the reloads, and Ammo cans to store and transport your product.
Reloading is an extremely precise process where attention to detail is absolutely critical. There is no room for mistakes or haphazard attention to detail. You and your family’s survival may depend on your precision at the bench.
The best part is you can roll your own for a whole lot less than store bought and you can continue to do so even if supplies should suddenly dry up. Your life and safety may depend on it, or maybe not. And who knows your family just might want to help you too. When my son was 4 years old I was loading a bunch of 38-357 rounds and on the weekends he’d ask me, “Dad, lets load bullets!” He wiped ofF each case and put them in the boxes as they came out of my progressive press. He put the boxes in the ammo can until it was full. When he tried to pick it up, he looked at me quite surprised, and said Dad this is just to heavy for me!
To get started you might want to use the KISS principal and start with just one pistol caliber until you are confident to move on to the rest of your “arsenal”
There you have my 2 cents worth 2.
Dennis Ward
PS . . . TO THE ABOVE POST. STICK WITH AS MANY STANDARD CALIBERS AS YOU CAN AS MENTIONED ABOVE, AND OR WHATEVER THE POLICE AND MILITARY USE. JUST MAKES THINGS SIMPLER. WITHOUT GOOD AMMO YOU HAVE AN EXPENSIVE HEAVY CLUB.
D W
All good posts and thoughts. Here in the Ozark mountains, it’s surprising how many old folks mention growing up in families that relied on one gun. Most counted on either a .22 rifle or a 12 ga. shotgun. Many of these people were dirt poor and simply couldn’t afford anything else. Both work just fine for hunting and defense. We keep a small collection, 30-06, 7.62×39, .22 rifles, .40 and .38 handguns, 12 ga. shotgun. And ammo for all of them.
Nice! Why did you pick the M4 over the mid-length gas system? I have a Stag M4 with a 14.5″ + pennaremt flash hider and a mid-length RRA LAR-15 A4. The mid length is considerably heavier but more accurate, especially beyond 200 yards. My Stag M4 is much easier to haul around on long hunting hikes though. Post some pictures when you get a chance!
Food for thought,
Lets face it. In a doomsday or less than scenario, and if we all need to bug out. There are only a few calibers that will make sense. Ammo will be scarce and the only abundance of ammo will be what the military’s use. Military and Police would be everywhere if this would occur.
Even the Police do not keep stockpiles of ammo. Many departments on tight budgets at times barely keep enough to cover there mandatory re-qualification requirements each year. This leaves the 40S&W as a questionable choice. Do to a large percent of police an federal agency’s are now using .40S&W. I for one prefer a 40S&W.
Bugging out will require bare bones needs. Carrying 500 rds or more may be a bit challenging. Especially if you are taking more than one firearm per person. If you have a family. It is better to have each family member carry a different firearm with different calibers for different tasks. Have each of them proficient with each gun.
This will really narrow the ammo choices, as far as long term quantity availability that you may be able to obtain over long periods of time.
As far as ammo that you may find in a shed etc somewhere. .22LR 12GA
USA Military Primary Ammo (9mm) ( .45acp mainly Special Ops quantity is ?able) ( .223- 5.56) (.308WIN – 7.62 NATO) (12GA) ( .50 Cal)
Other 7.62.39
I don’t know much about guns and ammunition, or even much about weaponry in general; but it would seem to me that relying on guns alone is unbalanced at best, and at worst makes you a target. Firing a weapon gives away your position and alerts everyone in earshot that you have a gun and ammo (which very valuable commodities in a survival situation that are worth killing and the risk of dying to acquire). If it comes to a societal collapse, having self defense skills, knowing how to use mace, fishing, trapping, and bow-hunting, and keeping a low profile in general would be wise. I personally would use a gun only in the most desperate of circumstances.
Sister: I have hunted all over the world. And when I encountered monkeys very early on in my career, it was a shock that an animal had cognizance and could recognize you from other humans. It was kind of scary to deal with something so much more intelligent than say a ruminant or deer etc. This thing thought, and planned and could coordinate actions, with other monkeys.
When I came to actually fighting humans it was even worse. The predatory human is an incredible animal, it thinks, plots, plans and executes, it gets pissed off and it remembers. That is why, universally, everything but sharks avoids the hunting human. Avoiding a predatory human is going to be tough, if you leave female sized footprints, food bits, trails, your traps, or whatever. A human can find it and track you. Not to mention that humans who don’t bathe everyday like we do now, produce scent. After a while ( and not really all that long) male animals, can catch female scent, even humans.
Yes a rifle shot can give your position away, but if you heard one, would you really run towards the guns? A single shot would have to be close for you to know exactly where it came from. Surprisingly though, a .22 rifle, fired from inside a car is almost indistinguishable from the generic noise on a busy street. I would be willing to bet that most people would not even recognize what that noise actually was. It does not sound like what the movies depict, nor do bullets whizzing bye. And although people initially won’t be real accomplished at survival stuff, the ones who do survive will get good, fast. The survivors of their first firefight get an exponential jump in the learning curve, and with every successful encounter become more dangerous.
One thing you might not have considered is the threat you represent, even though you might not intend it. In a societal breakdown of the scale you describe, your very existence, represents competition for existing food sources etc. Some folks won’t like that. Some folks will just rob you and some are just mean, and won’t be satisfied with robbery. That is just the way the world goes, I’m afraid.
Best of luck
the Col
Firstly, great article. There are a few things that i think you may have missed though. I am kind of a old fashioned guy in arms and armor and such. I believe that our forefathers gave us valuable lessons in survival and it’s now time we listened and learned again from their stories and lives. The first thing you overlooked was black powder firearms. simple, easy to clean (can be cleaned using only water, DRY WELL), (especially for cap and ball) and extermly easy to procure munitions for. For example, my .44 black powder pistol was designed in 1864 (the brass frame remington) was purchased from cabelas for $100 ten years ago. With a flathead screwriver i can disassmeble my gun down to the mainspring, allowing me the possibility of machining new parts by copying. I can use either pyrodex, goex, or standard smokeless powders which may be found in scavenged ammo by disasembling them. I can cast my own bullets by using a mold i bout for $10 (remember those scavenged rounds?). I use percussion caps which can be purchased. (100 for $3) I have heard (not tried myself) that in a pinch you can use the caps that are used in cap guns (the ring ones of course) also the primers from the scavenged ammo may work…..I use 38 gr. of powder (pyrodex or goex, one pound for about $15) if you use goex try to get the triple F size(on the can it says FFF) pyrodex use the pistol size my pistol has its own loading lever so i dont have to worry about that and the Remington’s clyinders can be easily swapped out in six motions (a precursor to the magazine idea). No disassembly required. all you would want to do is cover the rest of the combustion chamber with petroleum jelly.At 50 yards I consistently shoot 6″ groups.
also you forgot the finest bows to come out in the last century, the compound bow. learn to restring and have a few strings and a press handy and now you can do everything the pro shop does. No arrows? No problem. find steel dowels (do not use wood shafts with compound bows. the shaft may break and go through your arm, Talk about ouch! so use steel), cut to length, heat one end to forging temp (cherry red) pound flat, sharpen, cut a nock in the opposite end, REMOVE ALL BURRS!!!!!!!!(don’t want to cut your string now do we?) now make three vanes out of duck tape, spin them in your hand to cause the vanes to force the arrow to spin in flight and ‘voila! Arrow!!
Another great thing is the let off, the sight, and all the other advantages.
And don’t forget the weapons that require no ammo. (spear, sword, knife, ax, tomahawk, etc.)
Anything can be forged or made with fire, air, steel, hammer and anvil.
This I believe is the best way. I may be wrong. I doubt it though. Thank you for your time. May this information may help you and yours.
Another consideration, at least for putting meat on the table in a survival situation is the old fashioned flintlock fusil or musket. You can put nearly anything down the barrel of a frontstuffer with a black powder charge and it will serve you well. It can, in an emergency be used to dispatch a critter of the two-legged variety. Never mind the fact that you can make your own blackpowder and flint or chert is pretty readily available (again, location, location, location). I have been a long time blackpowder shooter and while they are not up to the kind of rapid-fire, spray and pray of most people, they are very reliable and very effective. I have both a long gun and pistol that will be with me in a survival situation along with my AR-15, 7.62×54, 10/22, 12 gauge and .45.
Oops!, I see GreatBear 1982, who posted ahead of me, was already advocating for the inclusion of blackpowder weapons. It helps if I read ALL the posts! Anyway, it also brings to mind that archery weapons of all varieties, sling shots, blow guns etc all have their place in your survival weapon inventory.
You guys all need to start reloading if cost of ammo is an issue. I’ve saved so much money since I started and I even shoot some scarce calibers.
I politely disagree with RA, you just shoot more when you reload. I inherited my first gun about 9 months ago, Remington rand ww2 1911 .45. I started shooting it and became addicted to it. I did it every weekend. I started going to walmart and buying the 100 round white box of .45 ammo it was almost 35 dollars a throw. I bought a reloading kit, it was 75 and then some dies which was 35 dollars. Well what happens is you start buying more guns when you see them at ranges. Some guy in the lane next to you at the range lets you shoot his gun and then it is more powder, dies, brass, and guns. I went from never having fired a gun to owning, a German luger 9mm, p-38 9mm, m1 .30 carbine IBM, M1 garand 30.06 springfield, 1903 springfield 30.06 , ruger mk2 .22 pistol, k98 mauser 8mm, and last week I put a m-14 .308 springfield on layaway, it is going to take me a while to get that badboy from the store, 1500.00. The more reloading you do the more guns you shoot and buy, it is really like a drug to me now. Just a warning from a newbie at this. Mike
In my humble opinion i thought about what do arm myself in the advent for a crisis..
home defence i have a Glock 40 with 15 round clips. my Wife a 38 cal revolver.
i have a pump shotgun also in 12ga remington. but probably wouldnt use it in the house..i value my hearing too much…
I have a 308 rifle ..this would be in very extreme circumstances..ammo very pricey.
for a 45 have you consider the hi point carbine? for under 400 bucks you can get a well beefed up package.
for example.. a laser, flashlight they are very reliable and durable..( all weather)..
for hunting most game around here can be taken out with a .22..this would be my hunting weapon. i dont want to shoot a rabbit with a 308..i actually want to have something to eat with seeing an explosion.
peace..
I am what I am,,, I am where i am and i can only do what i can…thanks…Damo
I appreciate, cause I discovered exactly what I used to be looking for. You have ended my 4 day long hunt! God Bless you man. Have a great day. Bye