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The Inconvenience of Protecting Liberty with Holland Vandennieuwenhof – Episode 098

Yesterday marked the 17th anniversary of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. It may seem that everything that could be said about that event has been said, and that now it’s a collective scar on the soul of our country—much the way the Twin Towers and 9/11 scarred us—and that all we can do is to live in the aftermath, picking up the pieces of our lives and moving on.

The question becomes, however – should the protection of liberty and the search for the truth be constrained to a schedule or timeframe? Should the truth, the truth that our government wants to hide from its citizens at all costs, be relegated to the back bin of history simply because the story is old and worn, and the actors have faded from center stage?

Off The Grid Radio
Ep 098
Released: April 20th, 2012

Bill:                  Welcome everybody. It’s Bill Heid with another—yet another—episode of Off the Grid News. We’ve got a returning guest with us today—Holland Vandennieuwenhof—the producer of A Noble Lie. There is some new news Holland, in this case and with the 17th anniversary coming up soon on the Oklahoma City bombing. We thought we’d try to cover these developments. We’re awful glad to have you back.

Holland:           Well thank you very much Bill. It’s a pleasure to be back on.

Bill:                  Very nice. You’ve got some things in the news recently and I think one of the things that I wanted to cover, where there are some more articles. There are some counter… I wanted to ask you before we start on the Salt Lake City case, I wanted to ask you about these articles that are being published—there’s kind of a big to-do about it—on the This Land Press. Are you familiar with these new articles that are coming out?

Holland:           Yes.

Bill:                  What’s the nature of those? Because they seem like they’re sort of trying to posit the old line story. What do you see coming out of this stuff?

Holland:           Well, This Land Press– I actually had not heard of them until these articles came out so it’s a small publication in Oklahoma. It was putting out some work related to the bombing. Of course this drew my interest. It’s going to be a series of articles and some of the preliminary stuff… It looked like they had access to the same materials that we had. So it was interesting. I was wondering where they were going to go with it. Then I saw that one of their writers, who was going to be putting out an article, was Gerald Posner. Gerald Posner is, I believe, the author who went at quite lengths to explain how JFK was indeed killed by Lee Harvey Oswald and there was absolutely no conspiracy, no problem with the evidence in that case. I think in fact that the name of his book was Case Closed. Of course that book was reviled by critics and attacked left and right by people all over for being inaccurate. So when I saw his name on the proposed series of articles, I was not too thrilled.

But then I saw that they were also going to allow Roger Charles to pen a piece. So it appears they are going for diversity here. Roger Charles is actually releasing a book this month called, I believe, After Oklahoma City and it’s the culmination of years of his research. Roger Charles had been the actual producer for ABCs 20/20 and he produced a 10-15 minute segment on prior knowledge in the Oklahoma City bombing case. And as we show in A Noble Lie, when he was asked to do a follow up, full hour episode on the evidence in Oklahoma City—the first one had been so popular—they actually shot and produced the entire show. And he was sitting at home waiting for the show to come on and they played a rerun of something else. And when he called his bosses at ABC, he was told that they had canceled it after a series of phone calls with the Justice Department. So Roger Charles’ book is coming out this month. From what Jesse Trentadue has to say, there are going to be some bombshells in it.

Bill:                  Well, speaking of bombshells, what is your… And this is kind of speculating at this point but it’s a bombshell for me, just thinking about Tim McVeigh. It’s not that Tim McVeigh’s sexuality becomes part of my daily thought life but what’s your… The deal with Tim and Richard Rogers—is that legit? Is that a legitimate thing?

Holland:           I have read those FBI 302 witness statements and it’s not the only one. I had not seen overwhelming evidence that McVeigh was gay. I have interviewed several people who were close to McVeigh—McVeigh’s roommate in the Army, the guy he was on the tank with in the Persian Gulf War, a guy who knew him more intimately than anyone else, and other people who were in the same platoon with McVeigh. Honestly, it could go either way. It’s very, very possible. We know that he’s had… Well I won’t get into the details but I will say that it’s very, very possible that he was.

Bill:                  Okay. Well that will be interesting when that book comes out. That will be very interesting just to sort of… I don’t know how that fits in with the case. I’m not really too excited one way or the other but it’s just… That’s not something that had even entered my mind as a possibility of… That somehow that was a part of this case.

Holland:           Yeah. Honestly, when I first stumbled across those reports, I just tossed them aside as obviously, when you read enough FBI 302 witness reports, you’re going to realize that a fair or a substantial number of them are really useless.

Bill:                  And sensationalized in many cases for just the purposes of the media or something too.

Holland:           But I stumbled across a few more inconclusive clues in our… Actually, most of that, on that end, was done by my co-writer Dr. Wendy Painting. She’s writing her PhD on the bombing. And she’s actually delved into these documents even more so than I have—much more so than I. And she’s the one who actually showed these to me. Like I said, it’s inconclusive. It can’t be ruled out either way.

Bill:                  Sure. Well let’s talk about some other stuff that we do have a handle on and that’s certainly the situation with the case in Salt Lake City with the federal judge. You want to fill us in on the news there– as we kind of talked about earlier—commemorating 17 years of distortion, deception and disinformation. We’re not the only ones; you’re not the only ones that are talking this way. Now you’ve got a federal judge talking your language.

Holland:           Yes. In A Noble Lie we interview Jesse Trentadue, whose brother Kenneth was murdered in federal custody several months after the Oklahoma City bombing. As it turns out, the FBI thought his brother—it was a mistake– they thought he might be John Doe #2. And you have to remember that to this day, the FBI denies the accomplice to McVeigh—that supposedly John Doe #2 never existed. But the FBI believed it enough that they were willing to kill someone for it, and an innocent man at that. Jesse Trentadue’s quest is to find truth and justice in his brother’s case, in regard to Oklahoma City. And he’s been issuing a FOIA for the videotapes that ringed the Murrah Building. They conclusively were taken down and copied by the FBI. We interviewed the police officer who saw them taking them down. We interviewed the man who was retained by the FBI to replicate all these copies.

To this day the FBI insists that they cannot find the videotapes. In the most important [inaudible 0:07:30.5] case in American history up until 9-11. They’re telling me that they’ve never been able to produce the tapes for trial—for anything. The only tapes that have ever been released are very short and off point and don’t show exactly what happened in front of the Murrah building. The recent court development was that Judge Louis Waddop [sp] told the FBI—and the FBI actually sent in like a sacrificial lamb. No one wanted to jump on the sword and put up the pathetic excuse that the FBI can’t find the videotapes. So they sent in a very junior US attorney. Obviously she was not very familiar with the case and even she—according to people who were in the courtroom—she was almost shaking with nervousness because she knew that she was simply taking part in a fabrication when she was trying to explain to the judge with a straight face that the FBI simply cannot find the video tapes to show to the American people.

Bill:                  Have you talked to Jesse about this lately?

Holland:           Yes. We’re actually in Salt Lake City for a movie screening for A Noble Lie and we invited Jesse. He spoke before and after and I talked with him at length about the case and how it’s going. Jesse himself never thinks the FBI will ever release the tapes. They simply can’t. It would be much too expensive, in terms of accountability and so forth if the American people knew from day one—with day one, hour one when they were pulling down the tapes, pulling down the video cameras and looked at them when they knew that McVeigh was not alone and lied to the American people about it. That simply will not be allowed to stand. So Jesse is pursuing this, perhaps in a vain hope but also as basically revenge for his brother’s murder. He is from Appalachia. Although he is a trained lawyer, he still takes his Scotch-Irish heritage very seriously.

Bill:                  He’s got some of that something and vinegar in him. So does he think that the… How does he see the case? He doesn’t see them putting out any documents but how does he see the judge reacting to the FBI’s statements?

Holland:           Well every time we’re about to lose faith in the system, some good official comes along and does something right. The fact that Jesse Trentadue has been able to get out so much information about the bombing—the teletypes and all of this—is because of a series of federal judges out of that district that have heard the arguments in court and have applied in the rule of law. And in this case, the judge basically told the FBI, “Come back on June 15th with either the tapes or a much better excuse than you can’t find them.” He expects them to be found but there’s only so much a federal judge can do. He can’t actually send US Marshals into the FBI archives to search, I don’t think.

Bill:                  I think he could—legally, could he not do that?

Holland:           I’d have to ask Jesse myself.

Bill:                  He won’t do it but I’m just talking about how far could you push that thing? He could use federal Marshals to get that…

Holland:           One would think. But the FBI is going to have to demonstrate just how incompetent they are to get to that point. So if the case is still alive, that the FBI still has to make a fool of itself every couple of months in front of this judge when they explain they can’t find the tapes, is well worth the time and expense. And it still develops more information. See, here’s the thing. Jesse Trentadue and that case and the murder of Kenny Trentadue was a tremendous foul up on the part of those people in the government who did it. They have been regretting that from day one. So they’re not all powerful. They mess up all the time. And we can win.

Bill:                  Yeah, that’s just a good example, Holland, of one of those cases where… People talk about in conspiracies, that “we don’t believe in conspiracies because people… they would leave a trail and they would mess up more than they do.” And the point you’re making, I think, is extremely valid. They do mess up. People do mess up all the time. They do leave a trail. And what’s going on in Salt Lake City is certainly testimony—no pun intended—to that kind of mistake that they’ve made. So it’s funny, they have to either say, “Hey, we’re incompetent” or “We’re lying,” right? Isn’t that kind of the two ways out really, for the…? Attorneys will make it seem less impactful but aren’t you kind of coming with the two conclusions there?

Holland:           Yes. And what the government relies upon, in these cases where the cover story is falling apart and their bare face is hanging out with guilt written all over it, is that they rely upon a compliant media to not cover that aspect of the story. Jesse Trentadue’s crusade has attracted its fair amount of attention in the state of Utah because he lives in Utah. He’s actually from West Virginia but he lives and works in Utah. And so you can look up the story on Deseret News and other Utah news sources and a few national, very small breaks. But for the most part—and that’s the thing about this movie A Noble Lie—that all of this evidence is so credible, so out there; in fact, most of it reported for the first time by mainstream media. But it’s simply not packaged. This content, this stuff that is anomalous to the official story is left out as it’s packaged for a mass consumption.

Bill:                  What’s it going to take for it to become mass consumption to where we get some of the facts out, to where people start to buy it? Is there a chance that this could ever really break out? What do you see the conditions being under which it becomes a story that Shepard Smith or someone would carry?

Holland:           Well if ever it had a better chance, it’s no better than now. Right now, there is a wave about to crest on information about the Oklahoma City bombing because Roger Charles is releasing his book this month. And also I have been told by Jesse Trentadue himself that a very prominent writer is releasing this month, in a major publication, an indepth article on Operation Pat Con. Pat Con stood for Patriot Conspiracy and was run by the FBI in the early and mid-‘90s. A Noble Lie is the first movie—documentary—to ever mention or become close to mentioning and talking about Pat Con. Pat Con, as one FBI source once said, will get you killed. It was a deep, undercover operation to infiltrate every dissident and anti-government group in the country and incite them with supplying them with weapons and implicate them in arrestable, federal felonies, usually involving firearms or automatic weapons. Oklahoma City was probably spawned in Pat Con.

And you know how sensitive they are over the issue of Pat Con because actually the same week that A Noble Lie was released, Newsweek put out an article about a former FBI undercover agent named John Matthews. John Matthews has gone to Jesse Trentadue for representation. Jesse Trentadue hooked him up with Newsweek. John Matthews had worked in Operation Pat Con in the early ‘90s and he thought he was fighting the Neo Nazi threat but he realized, not too long ago, that he had been used basically as an agent provocateur for the most part and that they were supplying the weapons to these militias and then trying to arrest them for it, just like Fast and Furious, it’s happening now. This has all happened before.

Anyway, when that article was written, it included Pat Con and included the fact that this operative named John Matthews had witnessed Tim McVeigh and Andy Strassmeir together, in a training camp in Texas. Well when that article was read to Jesse Trentadue the Friday before publication, it included all that information. The Newsweek writer read it to him. And I’ve actually talked to this Newsweek writer and he’s pretty down to earth and he had no control over what happened to his article after that. Editor of Newsweek, Tina Brown, cut the article out, excising all references to Pat Con, the Oklahoma City bombing, Tim McVeigh or Andy Strassmeir. And that happened over the weekend before publication on Monday or Tuesday. So they’re very sensitive about Pat Con. They don’t want it coming out and there’s going to be more information developing on that, apparently this month.

Bill:                  So a typical Pat Con situation—and these are at least ostensibly investigations or attempts to sort of get into white supremacists groups, right? And is this state specific? I think that I’ve seen that this is predominately in states like Arizona, Alabama, Tennessee, and Texas for sure…

Holland:           Well that’s the one that had been released. Apparently there were several Pat Con groups. Pat Con Group 1, Pat Con Group 2. Jesse Trentadue liked to refer to it as that’s how the German’s named their armies on the eastern front. Every region or state had a Pat Con group except Oklahoma. Apparently because no records have been released on any Oklahoma Pat Con. Although every state surrounding Oklahoma has a Pat Con group and we know that Elohim City, here in Oklahoma, was a staging ground for the bombing—a Neo Nazi community in eastern Oklahoma. Of course there was a Pat Con here. That means they haven’t released any. It was a nationwide organization. Every region had a Pat Con.

Bill:                  I see. So what do you think, in terms of just being in some kind of group like this…? Let’s look at for example… Let’s say there is a white supremacy group and you and I don’t like Nazis either but let’s say there is a Neo Nazi group or something. Let’s say there are 50 people. What would be the composition of that group, with respect to…? Out of the 50, how many are really Neo Nazis, really people that believe it? My guess is that there are some. But is it mostly just cops or…?

Holland:           If you had 50 men, at least half would be informing or providing information to the government, if not working directly for the government. About the time of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Texas Monthly gave a Bum Steer Award for the year to the FBI in Fort Worth Texas because they had infiltrated a local KKK group and had provided explosives and talked them into bombing the power plant in Fort Worth Texas. It was actually foiled by local police, operating independently of the FBI that stopped the attack. So you find these groups… And that kind of goes back through history. In the 1950s it was discovered that there were more dues paying members of the American Communist Party, who were FBIs instead of actual Communists. In essence, the FBI was the biggest financial backer of the Communist Party. That’s really the case with a lot of these Neo Nazi groups. If it wasn’t for federal money being pumped into these groups… I have talked to some of these people personally, who were involved with Aryan Nations and they said, “We knew who the informants were. They paid for everything. They paid for a new roof on the church. They paid for your trips to the conventions. They were peeling off $100 bills.” It’s kind of a symbiotic relationship there is that the federal government in essence creates many of these enemies to justify its own existence.

Bill:                  Yeah, it’s fascinating. So if you are a part of a group… Now obviously the first and smartest thing would be to not be a white supremacist because you’re probably pretty stupid if you are. Or a Neo Nazi.

Holland:           Oh yeah. And that’s the thing is that people who are Neo Nazis or white supremacists—they’re usually not very smart at all. So they’re not a genuine threat. And it’s kind of good that they’re self-identifying themselves as idiots who need to be watched. So anyway, go ahead.

Bill:                  Yeah. But let’s say… There’s this business of everything being in the margin. In other words, you might find yourself in a… Let’s say you’re on the shooting range and you’re shooting and there might be some people that belong to a militia in there and they think that there is a rich history of militia work, of militia activity in the United States, so they would belong to the Texas Reserve Militia or something. And you might end up rubbing shoulders with somebody, not intentionally—maybe unintentionally… I guess as part of this, let’s be a little proactive. You’re spotting these guys who are there. Number one, you’re going to recognize the Neo Nazis because they’re stupid. But you’re going to recognize the other guys because they’re going to be a little pushy, trying to get you to do things, pay for things, right? Is that kind of my understanding of what you’re saying?

Holland:           Yeah. Yeah. Most of the people working for the government, undercover in these groups, are people who have gotten in trouble themselves. In fact, there was something that we couldn’t include in A Noble Lie, simply for time reasons. But I went out to Utah and talked to a man named Johnny Bangerter. Johnny Bangerter is former head of security for Aryan Nations. He is no longer involved in ranks of politics and that was his errant youth. He has totally gone to the other side. But back in those days he was a real scary guy, in terms of what the media thought of him. He was involved with Ruby Ridge. He was related to Randy Weaver. And he had made a lot of inflammatory statements. He was head of the militia, which was basically eight or nine meth-heads in Utah was their militia. But they made a lot of provocative statements about blowing up the IRS building and so forth.

Several months—actually just a couple months before the Oklahoma City bombing—Johnny Bangerter is approached by a man who they know to be an informant. This is one of those guys they let hang around because he pays for their trips and he pays for everything. But he’s always talking about trying to get them to shoot automatic weapons or blow off explosives, which is obviously—that’s a federal agent. Anyone who has asked you to use automatic weapons or explosives is most likely a federal, undercover agent. These are federal felonies and they’re very sexy to prosecute in court. And Johnny Bangerter gets approached by this man again and he says, “Hey Johnny. I got a plan for you.” And this is before the Oklahoma City bombing, mind you. This is early 1995. This man says, “I want to blow up a federal building with a Ryder truck, using ammonium nitrate and Tovex boosters. And we will go in to hit a federal building.” And Johnny didn’t say a word. Just kept his mouth shut. He knew better than to say yes or no. He kept his mouth shut and changed the subject. Well this became a continual thing with this informant, asking Johnny to do this thing. Actually showed him bags of ammonium nitrate and Tovex boosters in his van. Johnny stayed away from him.

Then this man disappeared after a while. And they never heard from him again until they got a letter and it was from a jail and it said, “Johnny, I’m sorry. The ATF—they got me on automatic weapons and firearms charges and they wanted me to run this sting operation and they wanted to get me to get you into it.” So basically, we have the proof. And we actually did a more indepth expose of this on and we got a little video podcast there on it. But what we could conclusively prove that before the Oklahoma City bombing, the ATF was running a script, a sting operation using ammonium nitrate truck bomb on a filled federal building with a Ryder truck with Tovex boosters. They are running the same script that actually played out on April 19th. So that’s one reason they’re so scared about Pat Con because it’s so close to the truth. It’s so close to what actually happened.

Bill:                  So there might be quite a few scripts of that nature that existed that just didn’t go anywhere because they couldn’t find anybody to take the bait. Is that what you’re saying?

Holland:           Yeah, as Johnny put it, by 1995 most of the dumb Neo Nazis were in prison. The ones who are still around have learned a couple things. Otherwise they wouldn’t be walking around. This is several years into the dedicated operations against the Neo Nazi rights. So that’s why Johnny knew immediately to keep his mouth shut, not to say yes or no, just change the subject. That’s why he never got in trouble, actually for any of that, was because he did play it smart and he was smart enough to actually turn away from that stuff later on. But yeah, what you find is that they oftentimes incite these things. In fact, one of the gun stores that has been implicated in the Fast and Furious operation was just running a year and a half ago—that’s responsible for the death of up to 2,000 people when they were running guns into the hands of the Mexican drug cartel. One of those gun stores was also involved in Pat Con in the mid-1990s. So they used these proven logistical supply routes, these proven methodologies, and the pattern becomes almost nauseatingly simple.

Bill:                  Yeah, they get friends or allegiances or whatever and sometimes, like you said, it’s because maybe a gun store had a violation themselves and they’re sort of being obedient to people that could whack them or something. It’s hard to know what the details are. But how do you… This is a little off topic but how do you… This is one of those Francis Schaeffer always talked about, “How then shall we live?” Obviously you need to avoid this but don’t you think Holland, this is a difficult thing? We’re trying to teach people to respect the law because you and I think that law and order is a good thing. And yet when you see this, how can we—and we know that there are some great FBI agents and there are some really great ATF people. There are just good people—people that would dive on a grenade for you. How do you maintain a balance between thinking about when someone says, “Well, what’s our government like? W/hat are these guys like?” And well, it’s a complicated thing, right? You have dark side in all of these… You have forces of good and forces of evil perhaps in every agency. They’re just… What’s your way of running a compass—a moral compass—through this thing?

Holland:           Yeah, that’s a very good question. It may be very easy—it’s very tempting actually—just to declare all of law enforcement as evil and corrupt. But the fact is that most of our witnesses in A Noble Lie are government employees or police officers. Most of the information we have is because of first responders or people on the scene who were public officials and were still trying to do their duty. We interviewed State Representative Charles Key. He was a member of the Oklahoma bombing… He founded the Oklahoma bombing… the investigation committee to look into this anomalous evidence that was being ignored by the government and because of him and because Charles Key lent his name to that investigation, so many more people were willing to come forward.

Because when you know something, when you’ve seen something with your own bare eyes that you know the government is lying about—you saw it happen and now the government’s… And if you weren’t awake, if you were just living your life, living day to day, not hurting anyone, just minding your own business and then something extraordinary happens and you witness something and you realize that the government is lying about it—that’s hard for a lot of people to live with. And when Charles Key put his name on that investigation, people were satisfied. They knew they weren’t going to be used. They knew that there was some legitimacy to this. And so they came forward. And Charles Key continues the public work to this day. He’s running for the office of [inaudible 0:29:21.6] Burke, here in Oklahoma County. So it would be very easy to dismiss all law enforcement, all public officials out of hand but there are good ones and they try to do their best, insomuch as they can, within their arena.

Bill:                  And I think what we’d want listeners to… We would encourage listeners so that… We always want to place the proper antithesis, the opposite… What you’ve got is law officers in some cases breaking the law and so the opposite of that isn’t breaking the law yourself. The opposite of that is being obedient to the law and so you don’t want to go… This is sometimes a pendulum wants to swing back and forth as if “Well, if they can do this, I can do that.” That’s sort of the script.

Holland:           That’s the typical reaction. That’s a reaction.

Bill:                  Yeah, and don’t you think that’s the script in some cases, that some people want?

Holland:           Yeah. It’s good to never react to most things because the reaction is often the intended or the at least planned for result. It would be very easy to react to it and call all officers “pigs” or something, you know? Or whatever. And believe me, there is… I’ve seen some very ugly aspects of the FBI and ATF but there are still a lot of good agents out there. The FBI crime labs supervisor, Whitehurst—David Whitehurst—he resigned and started talking about Oklahoma City, how they were fixing the case. So there are good agents out there and there are a lot of good street officers. In fact, we interviewed the family of Terry Yeakey, who was the first officer to respond and he wound up murdered a year later, after he started talking about some of the things he had seen. So there are a lot of good officers out there. I was once actually expressing some of this frustration with the [inaudible 0:31:14.5] of the system to a fellow researcher and he told me, “Where there is great evil, there is also great good.” So I know they are out there. They have provided us information before. Unfortunately we have criminals in charge and we’ve reached that state of history where criminals are actually in charge of the system and calling other people criminals and we’re going to have to deal with that. But it is important to maintain objectivity.

Bill:                  Yeah, and I think even… You play into this sort of philosophically as well. We don’t want to encourage—we want to discourage any kind of vigilantism.

Holland:           Oh they would love it.

Bill:                  They would love that.

Holland:           If you go to violence, they would love it. It’s their dream. They want us to pick up the gun right off the bat and start shooting them because they know how to deal with violence. They’ve got that down. They know exactly how to deal with violence.

Bill:                  Yeah. Well and Holland, wasn’t… Look at Saul Alinsky’s perspective. He always—and this is the guy that trained Obama probably—the action is in the reaction, right? So that is their script. So if a guy tries to sell you an automatic machine gun, what’s the thing? I’m going to go, “Hey, you know what? I’m going to go home and pray for you.” What are you going to say to a guy that says that to you? You’re going to have to have a response if someone ever… You’re on the shooting range and somebody comes and tries to say that to you. You’re going to have to say, “You know what? I don’t break the law, buddy.” I love this country. I love its laws. And I think that has to be our script, as law keepers.

Holland:           And then the reason we indict these federal law enforcement officers is because they fail to follow the law. They’re not following the law. And we want them to. And it’s amazing that… I think [inaudible 0:33:01.7] just put it out that current FBI agents who do Homeland Security training—in their Power Point it said, “FBI agents are allowed to bend or break the law.” Now this isn’t a Law and Order episode. This is real life. And if you’re teaching the FBI that they can break the law at will, what laws do they not break? You’re actually giving them a license to break laws and that never leads to good things.

Bill:                  It leads to bad things but Holland, if you don’t have a populous that understands what the laws are, that aren’t vigilant with respect to each man, each woman knowing what the laws are and insisting that their representatives maintain a law order… If you’ve got a stupid… And excuse the language. I’m not name-calling. I’m just saying if you’ve got an ignorant population and you’ve got school kids that come out that don’t know what the laws are, an FBI—a rogue FBI agent—could do anything and they would just… It’s just brute force against brute force, right? “Well, I guess someone’s trying to beat me or do something illegal to me. What can I do?” It’s kind of just like ancient Rome at some point, where you’re just under some force, a power, and that’s about it. You don’t live in a free country anymore and nobody knows to say, “Hey. Wait a second. Didn’t we have rights at some point?”

Holland:           Exactly. That’s what you learn in public school is actually you learn how to behave as an adult. And in school you are told that you have no rights, that you can be searched at will, that you can’t say what you want to in the school newspaper, that… There are a lot of restrictions on an individual’s freedom that are put down on you in public indoctrination. And when you graduate at 18 years old, how you walk around the world is how you learned in school. And if you learned immediate deference to authority, no matter what, that you have no rights, that you can be searched at any time—that’s how you’re going to behave. It’s only a very few people who mainly self-educate themselves as to what their rights are, who are a large obstacle to their path, which I think the information revolution is really… If it wasn’t for the Internet, we’d be in a real sad state right now because of the propaganda and the brainwashing that’s been going on for decades, to turn us into creatures that we’re not supposed to be. We are Americans. We have a tradition of self-reliance, independence, freedom, individual rights, free enterprise, rejecting central authority and we have been turned into something else.

Bill:                  Don’t you think… Here’s a little taste of irony in that you have these groups, ostensibly trying to fight Neo Nazis. And as I said before, we should all be fighting Nazis. We’ve fought Nazis in World War II. I have relatives that fought in that war. So we should be fighting the concept of being a Nazi. But it’s interesting that these groups that are pretending to fight Nazis are actually, what they’ve done is incorporate the Nazi paradigm of marginalizing you and taking away your rights. And this is exactly what they did to the Jews, unto the point where they marginalized them, took away their rights to the point that… At some point they were non-humans. So the people that are saying that they’re against this are actually taking you down that road—the same road that the Nazis took the Jews. Somebody has to stand up and say something here because this is an amazing point in history and no one sees it. At least the people that I talk to—nobody sees it.

Holland:           Yeah, dichotomy is amazing. It’s time to look at things with objectivity and see what’s happening here. When we examine the role of the Southern Poverty Law Center in the bombing, apparently they had up to… They had at least three or four to five informants with McVeigh before the bombing. In fact, one of the… Mark Potok, one of the spokesmen, admitted to having people embedded with McVeigh. Then he quickly changed subjects and said he’d have to kill you if he told you anymore. So they bragged about this. But the fact is that the SPLC is basically a fundraising arm for the Democratic Party. I’m not trying to be left or right here. I’m not going after the Democrats. Believe me. I’m not a two party guy. But when you see the role of SPLC in promoting these hate groups and now you see the SPLC is now sitting on many boards of advisements in the Department of Homeland Security– They are now officially part of the government.

But the SPLC was conducting surveillance on behest of the FBI in the early 1990s because they could do things the FBI wasn’t allowed to do at that time. The SPLC doesn’t need a search warrant. They don’t need probable cause and all that stuff. They can get the information and they can sell it to the highest bidder. And they can also drum up the Nazi threats to guarantee fundraising. What’s a better way to get some money in than to go to Hollywood or somewhere and start harping about that the Neo Nazi threat in the heartland? So they definitely overplay it. It’s like the old parable of the priest who finds a dying devil and then nurses him back to life. They need an enemy.

Bill:                  Yeah, well I would think Mark and the other guys at the Southern Poverty Law Center would be kind of for maintaining rights and for… I don’t know if they’re sincere or insincere. I don’t claim to judge their hearts but I would think that they’d be on our side. If they weren’t doing as you say, that they would be trying to make sure people had their rights and that rights weren’t sort of diminished or dissipated in any way.

Holland:           Well, John Matthews, who worked for the FBI, he said he’s finally realized… He had started… He was a Vietnam veteran. He got along with Jesse Trentadue because they were both Marine Vietnam veterans and both Third Marine Division men. And Jesse got him hooked up with Newsweek. But John Matthews got into the undercover work because he wanted to fight the threats. He thought these were really bad guys. And for the most part, they are. For the most part, they’re morons but a lot of them are also threats. And he started investigating them for the FBI and then after ten years of service, he realized that his actual job was to incite them because he was seeing all kinds of felonies being committed but they weren’t being picked up on because they weren’t serving an agenda. And he was realizing that the military was actually running weapons to the militias. How are the militias getting all of these automatic weapons and explosives? He realized that they were actually inciting the threat. And it’s because he is now facing his own death—John Matthews is. He’s got Agent Orange symptoms from Vietnam and he’s not long for this world. He’s trying to expose what he did and that’s why he went to Jesse Trentadue. That’s why he went to Newsweek. And then Newsweek gutted the story.

Bill:                  Yeah, and it’s an amazing thing really, when you think about it. Just how these guys end up… How twisted and weird could it get? It’s like my old friend, Hunter Thompson. “It never got weird enough for me.” This is weird enough for me. This is kind of… You couldn’t make this stuff up, Holland.

Holland:           No, you couldn’t. We have been to some strange places investigating this case. I’ve stood on porches with guns pointed at me. I’ve gone to Elohim City. I’ve had to risk my life a number of times– us and the crew– to get information. Going off into the hinterlands of some fly-over state to talk to some old Nazi who may have known McVeigh. But it has been strange but you see… The fact that Jesse Trentadue has done so much… His brother was murdered in a case of mistaken identity. And because Jesse Trentadue was the kind of man who was willing to stand up and not back down from the federal government, we now know so much and we see this time and time again, is that somehow, the information we need arises to help us move forward. In fact, we could testify to that about the making of the movie. Every time we thought we were at a standstill, something would happen to keep us going forward. So I do think the story is yearning to be told in this saying, “It’s not over.” This month is going to be a watershed moment for new revelations. More on Pat Con. More on Andy Strassmeir. Apparently there is going to be a lot of bombshells in Roger Charles’ new book.

Bill:                  Well we’re excited to have that come out. What do you folks…? Are you working on anything new?

Holland:           Well I’m currently researching and writing the next project. It’s tentatively titled State of Mind. We’re going to be examining the CIA’s MKULTRA, experiments in mind control in the 1960s and ‘70s and their probable continuation to the present day, among other related subjects. There was a lot of MKULTRA conditioning being used at the University of Oklahoma. And the reason we got onto this was because when we were doing the research for the bombing, it quickly became apparent that Dr. Jolyon West, one of the premier MKULTRA contractors in this country, had treated McVeigh, had advised the defense team about McVeigh and had recommended his own protégé, a Dr. John Smith, to be McVeigh’s personal doctor. Well Dr. John Smith, who treated McVeigh, at the behest of the MKULTRA guru, was later Chief of Psychiatry at Guantanamo Bay, a known mind-control laboratory. So we saw the tendrils of mind control creeping into this story. We didn’t explore them at length in the movie because we simply didn’t have time and the story is not yet developed but we are pursuing it with this one.

Bill:                  As we get ready to kind of close here Holland, how would you like… As we said before, we’re not talking about celebrating the 17th anniversary but maybe it’s a pretty somber thing. And as we think about nations, our nation, how much you and I love our country, how much we want it to stay a free republic and we’ve certainly seen just the opposite of that happen—putting all these things together, what’s a good way to sort of commemorate the date? Because you’ve got a watershed month here, with the book and with just the anniversary date. In your mind, what’s the best way to commemorate the Oklahoma City bombing and those that lost their lives?

Holland:           Well ultimately, the best way to remember the bombing is not with a lie because that is an injustice. The people who died there—the 168 people who died out of the blue, the 20 children—it is not right to remember their deaths with a lie. It is right to remember it with truth and with justice and seeking both. And I know how I’m spending the anniversary is me and the Free Mind Films crew and We Are Change Oklahoma—we’re going to be down at the memorial. They have their yearly celebration of the lie, when they have the politicians come speak at the memorial. Now the memorial itself, at Oklahoma City, is quite beautiful. We’ve talked to the architects—been sympathetic. The memorial itself is very beautiful. The museum is a complete fabrication. A total lie inside the building. But the memorial itself is quite beautiful. I highly recommend anyone in Oklahoma City, if you’re visiting, to go there and check it out. But we’ll be at the memorial, outside. We have the street permits. And we’re passing out copies of the movie. We actually purchased, at our own expense, copies to be handed out for free. They’re going to be in cardboard sleeves with our logo on it. It’s not just a paper sleeve. It looks nice but we wanted a smaller sleeve so we could carry more and so people could put it in their pockets. And we’re handing a free copy of the movie to everyone who goes in and out. We’re going to ruin their little party.

Bill:                  Well good for you. It’s good to have you back on the show and I think there’s probably, Holland, a lot more that we can talk about the next time. But we certainly appreciate all that you’ve done and would encourage people to visit on the 19th to get their free copy. If they don’t have a free copy, go to or we have it in our store. Get it. Watch it. And make sure you pass it around with this upcoming date of the 19th coming up. Just pass it around to a friend or a loved one and sort of inform them. If you don’t do anything else, just encourage your neighbor. Holland, thanks again for your time. We really appreciate your work.

Holland:           Thank you. Thank you very much for having me on.

Bill:                  You’re welcome. And for the listeners, we want to thank you for spending your hour with us. We know that your time is important and we just really thank you for spending it with us today. Thanks again.

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