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A Noble Lie with Austin Green and Holland Van den Nieuwenhof – Episode 087

Today on Off the Grid Radio, Bill Heid interviews Austin Green and Holland Van den Nieuwenhof, part of the team that has produced an explosive new video, A Noble Lie. This film is an effort to bring to light the truth behind the April 19th, 1995 attack against the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City that killed 168 men, women, and children.

Our guests on today’s show tell us that for every white operation, there is a black operation that goes on as well. What was our intelligence community trying to do when it was keeping Timothy McVeigh under surveillance, when it was providing him the material to destroy a federal building? What is the truth behind the deaths of first responders and whistleblowers?

Off The Grid Radio
Ep 087
Released: February 3, 2012

Bill: Welcome to Off the Grid Radio.  Better ideas to bust you and your family out of today’s global control grid.  Now, here’s today’s show.  Greetings and welcome everybody.  It’s Bill Heid with Off the Grid Radio.  Today we’ve got some guests.  We’re going to go through a little bit of an off the grid history lesson today.  It’s a painful history lesson.  We’ve got film producers Austin Green, the senior editor and Holland Van den Nieuwenhof, the folks that produced the film, A Noble Lie.  Fellows, thanks so much for joining us today.  Let’s talk a little bit about the film.  Two years in the making.  You covered a lot of stuff.  It’s taken a while.  It’s probably one of the most important documentaries that I’ve seen in quite a long time.  It’s disconcerting.  It’s difficult to sleep after you’ve watched it.  Why don’t you give us a little bit of an… We’ll explore this thing but while don’t you give us a little bit of an encapsulated, why is this film so important kind of a perspective?


Holland: Okay.  A Noble Lie:  Oklahoma City 1995 is the first documentary to look at the Oklahoma City bombing in the light of new and suppressed evidence that shows the official story of the bombing to be a cruel myth.  A Noble Lie is from Plato’s Republic.  It means a myth or untruth told by the elite to preserve social harmony or the position of the elite.  In essence, a lie told for the greater good.  We conclusively prove in this documentary that the official story is false and you can check out the trailer at


Bill: When we talk about involvement, give us some of the characters that were involved in this and then give us a little bit of the lay of the land as we start out this thing.  What’s going on in the United States at this time?


Holland: Well, the official story of the Oklahoma City bombing is that an arm veteran named Tim McVeigh was upset at the federal government over the actions over the ATF and the FBI at Waco, which had burned to the ground two years to the day before the bombing in 1993.  Tim McVeigh drove a Ryder truck full of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil in front of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City and blew it up and killed 168 people and he was caught the same day and only two other people in the universe were involved in this plot.  That is the official story.

But what was going on in the country at that time was really a political awakening.  I became politically awake in the early ‘90s.  I was in the Marine Corps at the time of the bombing but I was still hearing things that were going on that were contrary to the official story.  So referencing Waco and Ruby Ridge that there was a lot of heavy criticism of federal law enforcement at the time because of those actions.  After Oklahoma City, the sins of Waco were forgiven.


Bill: I see what you’re saying.  So Waco really… And did McVeigh use that?  I can’t remember.  Did he mention Waco at all, in any of the testimony?  Was that a big thing, in terms of what he said was the motivating issue?


Holland: Yes, that is what he has stuck to, is that he was incensed over the actions at Waco and that’s why he blew up similar children in Oklahoma City.


Austin: And there was even some video footage that we put a couple times in the film there, that shows McVeigh as a young man at Waco, during the time that that was actually going on.  He was supposedly there protesting the event, handing out literature, anti-government literature.  But for anyone that watches the movie, you’ll learn that the whole reason why he was there was a little bit deeper than people realize.


Bill: So he was handing out anti-government literature at those events.  So he disappeared, right?  For a while after he was in the service?  Is that they McVeigh story?  The official story?  Doesn’t he show up in New York someplace and he’s kind of… That’s his first rabble-rouser moment, right?


Holland: Exactly.  He was building a legend for himself.  When McVeigh was arrested the day of the bombing, when he was presented and given to his first set of attorneys, he told them that he had been recruited out of the National Guard to infiltrate Neo-Nazis in the US Army.  He told his lawyers that he had carried out his actions at Oklahoma City under orders from the US government.  This shocked the attorneys so much that they quit.  These were some of the finest attorneys in the state of Oklahoma and still are.  And they would have nothing to do with the case.  What they told their comrades after that was that after you’ve had the conversation I just had, you’ll never look at your government the same way again.

McVeigh had served in the Gulf War.  Shortly after that, he tried out for Special Forces.  He supposedly quit just a couple days into the qualifications because he had some blisters on his feet.  But according to his family and the letters he wrote to his family, that he was not kicked out of Special Forces.  He was actually… He volunteered to go into a covert operation unit that specialized in drug running and assassinations of security risks.  In fact, after the bombing, we have wiretap transcripts of the family asking the FBI, “Why are you saying that he was out of the Army.  He was not out of the Army.  He was performing covert missions.”  So it appears that he was involved and to his own… He has admitted to it himself, that he was involved in some kind of undercover operation.


Austin: And we even have his death certificate.  That’s one of the most interesting pieces of evidence in this film is that despite the fact that McVeigh had been out of the military for many years, officially at this point, after his supposed death, his execution, it says right there on his death certificate that his occupation—not previous occupation but his current occupation—was the US Army.


Bill: Well, what do you think he was doing during this period of time?  In other words, these guys, whether they’re Andy Straussmeir… any of those guys, who’s pay rolling these people?  As they’re living this world kind of off the grid in a way, where is their money coming from?  They have to eat, right? He’s out of the service.  How’s he eating?


Holland: Well, that’s the thing is you have this guy who barely holds down a string of menial jobs while he’s going from gun show to gun show around the country, staying in hotel rooms the entire time.  We have all those motel and phone records.  He was staying in motels or hotels almost every night, yet he had no regular employment.  He was like the A-Team.  Traveling around the country, no verifiable income, solving problems, getting in adventures.  How is this guy eating?  Exactly.


Austin: Yeah, I think that’s a very poignant question because when you look at everything that he’s doing, it’s obvious that he’s being sponsored by someone.  We try to get to the bottom of that in this film and we definitely point the finger in the direction of the FBI and the CIA to a certain degree.  There were lots of informants operating at this Elohim City that McVeigh has provable ties to.  So people want to say that this film is just bashing the government but what we’re really trying to do is show that there are certain elements of the government that are funding these black op type operations where we have these informants setting up potential destruction of federal buildings and talking about it and just staking things out, trying to cause problems.  But at the end of the day, when you look at this thing, it’s obvious that the government has got their fingers in this all the way.


Bill: Speaking of that, talk a little bit about Elohim City.  It seems to me as I watch your film and I’ve read some other stuff, that if you go to a place like that, what percentage of people were agents and what percentage of people were really nutcases?  What’s the ratio there?


Holland: Well, we traveled out to the Elohim City to interview someone.  Elohim City is a white separatist community in eastern Oklahoma.  To call it a compound is rather a stretch.  It’s rather a collection on homes.  And it’s off in the hills of eastern Oklahoma.  McVeigh was seen there several times.  He was staying in motels outside there.  He was getting speed tickets outside there.  He was making phone calls there.  The FBI denies he was ever there.  In fact, the FBI backed up the alibis of his accomplices from Elohim City on the stand.

And it turns out later that the leader and founder of Elohim City, which stands for City of God, by the way, Malar, was a federal informant making $400.00 a month until he died.  So the founder and leader of this so-called white separatist community was an informant.  And according to the FBIs and the Southern Poverty Law Center’s own documents, there were at least four to six informants in and around McVeigh while he was at Elohim City the entire time.


Austin: Yeah, that’s right.  Jesse Trentadue, who is in the movie, who was investigating the death of his brother, that happened in federal custody.  Through the process of trying to find out what happened to his brother, had uncovered all these documents.  He was even leaked documents by the director of the FBI, Louie Freeh.  And these documents showed that there were informants obviously working at Elohim City.  Would you say five to six informants?


Holland: Exactly.  On paper, that we know of.  There’s probably more.  I try to remember the words of Colonel Roger Charles.  He was actually… Back after the bombing, he worked for ABC News.  He was a producer.  And he produced a segment on ABC News about government prior knowledge of the bombing.  He talked about the ATF not being there.  The bomb squad being sighted.  This segment generated so much publicity that they were going to do an entire episode follow-up on Oklahoma City.  The show was produced and shot and Roger Charles was sitting at home, waiting for it to come on his TV and they ran a re-run.  He calls his boss, who is at ABC.  He’s like, “What is going on?”  And they’re like, “Well, we got some calls from the Department of Justice and we decided not to run the show.”

Roger Charles became so upset, he quit and he started working for the investigation, the independent investigation.  But one of the things he once said was, “For every white op, there is a black op.”  And we see that with the Fast and Furious these days, the Operation Gunwalker, that have killed at least 2,000 people in Mexico, at least three police officers over here in the United States.  That’s in the headlines now.  That was being run by Attorney General Eric Holder.  Eric Holder, back in 1997, 1998, 1999 he was Assistant Attorney General under Clinton and he was in charge of the cover up of the murder of Kenny Trentadue in federal custody.  So you see that, this methodology and these same people being used again and again.


Bill: So you said that wherever there is a white op, there is a black op.  Now, explain that a little bit.  In other words, is that so they can eliminate people that participate too far into one or if there are questions in another, you can always transfer blame back and forth?  Or how does it…?


Holland: It’s the common methodology we see and Roger Charles had worked in military intelligence so he just wasn’t making something up.  He knew how these things work.  What I mean when I say for every white op, there is a black op is that they don’t… For example, when you see these deep state operations like 911, like Oklahoma City, like other operations, you’ll always see that there’s a concurrent amount of drills or law enforcement operations going on underway.  It’s not that they initiate these deep state operations entirely independent of any other function.

They use the existing functions of law enforcement and government and military to execute these attacks and how they get them to go along is that they take an existing sting operation like Oklahoma City.  We know that there was a sting operation, an undercover operation.  They were watching McVeigh.  We have the paper on it.  They were watching McVeigh before the bombing.  They knew he had a Ryder truck.  They built him his bomb.  What they didn’t expect, what the street agents on the street did not expect, was that bomb to explode outside a full federal building on a work day.  They expected it to explode at night and destroy an empty building and basically be a publicity stunt.  We interviewed State Representative Charles Key.  He led the Oklahoma bombing investigation committee.  And he was briefed by a Senate staffer, that they had been told by the Department of Justice that the Oklahoma City bombing was a result of a sting gone bad.  So it’s not that every agent on the street is covering up the fact that some deep faction within the government blew up the building.  They’re covering up the fact that it was their operation, it was their informant, it was their bomb and they have to cover their butts.


Bill: We’ll talk a little bit about when good guys stumble.  Now, not everybody that works for the FBI or the ATF are bad people.  As a matter of fact, you might make the case that the opposite of that is true because a lot of the field guys are generally good guys.


Holland: Most of our witnesses in the movie are government employees.


Bill: Yeah, so the field guys, a lot of times, don’t know the totality of what’s going on.  But what happens when good guys kind of get in the way a little bit or ask too many questions?  You certainly see the case of Terrence Yeakey.  Talk a little bit about that case of what happens when good guys kind of stumble onto some things that maybe they shouldn’t stumble onto.


Austin: Well, while editing this film, the Terrence Yeakey section was one of the most difficult parts to edit.  There was so much information involved but you really had to get to the core of the story.  And obviously Terrence Yeakey was a hero.  He was well known at the time of his death, for being one of the first police officers at the scene, at the Murrah Building.  He pulled many people out that morning.  This guy was the epitome of an excellent police officer and had honor, integrity and all this stuff.  Now, after this all went down, he knew that something was up and that the official story was not jiving with what he saw that morning and he was gathering evidence and he had told people that he was going to take this information out to his storage unit but he had to shake some feds that were following him, apparently.

And of course he said, “I’ll meet you later,” but he never shows up.  Of course, they found him on federal property, coincidentally, outside a near El Reno penitentiary.  He was all cut up.  He had lost a ton of blood.  He had a bullet wound from a small caliber handgun that was shot at an angle that would have been almost impossible for a man to shoot himself at, despite the fact that he was all cut up and had all these ligature marks all over his body.  It was just obvious, when you put all of the pieces of evidence together and you looked at the circumstances of his death, there was just no way that the official story of him committing suicide could have possibly been true.  Holland, do you want to add something to that?


Holland: And law enforcement knows that I have been approached by police officers on their own and they have brought up the Terrence Yeakey case.  They know he was killed.  The murder of Terrence Yeakey served the purpose of telling every first responder on the scene, “We know you saw something that you weren’t supposed to see.  Keep your mouth shut.”  And the lesson was learned.  Keep your mouth shut or you’ll be killed.


Bill: Yeah, those are pretty strong ways to make a message.  What do you think about… Charles Key certainly did some big shoulder stuff when he took this on.  How did all that go?  How did he get involved?


Holland: Well, Oklahoma City Representative Charles Key was just a state representative of Oklahoma.  After the bombing, the first day, there was a lot of things coming out through the local media that were never touched upon again.  John Doe #2, other accomplices, other bombs being found in the building.  We demonstrate that conclusively.  And then after the federal investigators took over, everything turned.  Except for one local news channel, Channel 4, did stay on the story.  They were interviewing John Doe #2 when this is talking about the ATF being absent from their offices that day.  They were later bought out and everyone fired who was questioning the official story.  After that it was…


Bill: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  Stop for a second.  That’s right.  I remember watching this.  The whole… Was it ABC?


Holland: It was a local NBC affiliate…


Bill: NBC.


Holland: Yeah.


Bill: And that was bought out on what date?


Holland: They were purchased approximately a year after the bombing, by the New York Times broadcasting company.  The programming director, who had been leading the investigation into the bombing, she was fired.  The lead journalist on the case, Jayna Davis, her contract expired and they did not renew it.  She left the station.  She later wrote the book The Third Terrorist, which I recommend.  And all reporting that contradicted the government after that, vanished.  The New York Times was complicit in helping cover up the truth.


Austin: And I think that was just like the Terrance Yeakey thing.  That was a message that they were sending to any other news stations that had any crazy ideas of actually reporting the truth that if you do this, we’re just going to come in and take you over anyway.


Holland: And Charles Key, seeing this, he started the Oklahoma bombing investigation committee, which was an independent panel composed of himself, [inaudible 0:16:57.8], who lost dozens of friends in the building—he was in the building.  He’s a survivor. —Air Force Colonel Wallace and Dale Philips, a local, upstanding businessman, pillar of the community.  What they did was they hired lawyers, accountants and PIs to compile evidence to present, either to a congressional inquiry or to the media, trying to store this evidence, verify it and record it for history because it was being ignored by the federal government.


Bill: It’s a pretty amazing story.  And these lessons are learned pretty… I think a percentage of the population, when they get these hard lessons, are going to do just that.  Shut up.  Isn’t that what you see as you guys do this investigation?  There’s a couple different types of people.  Some people say, “I’m not going to take this anymore.  I don’t care.  Go ahead and kill me if you want to.”  And other people, they say, “Well, gee.  I don’t want any trouble.”  What’s the percentage of people, would you say, that say, “I don’t want any trouble”?  Is it most of the population?


Austin: Really, from my experience, it’s about half and half.  But that’s here in Oklahoma.  I couldn’t say for everywhere in the world.  But people here in Oklahoma tend to take their rights very seriously.  But Hoppy Heidelberg, somebody that we touch on quite a bit in the movie, this guy is a perfect example of somebody who just looked fear in the face, even after FBI intimidation.  He was on that federal grand jury and said, “We’ve got to get to the truth.  We’re not going to accept this hogwash that you’re trying to force down our throats.”  And of course, him stepping up and showing that courage, they let him go and sent him packing.


Holland: And harassed him afterwards.  And when you talk about like the percentage of people who will fold in the face of pressure like this… A recent example is Joe Paterno, the coach in Pennsylvania who by all accounts before the recent scandals involving child molestation with the Sandusky case, was a moral and courageous leader, by all accounts.  No one could dispute that.  But he faced a moment of moral difficulty, a very difficult situation where he tried to say something to his superiors about something and he was basically told to shut up.  And you know what?  He did.  So even great men can fold under pressure like that.


Bill: Yeah, that was very unfortunate to see him pass that way.  A great man, as you say Holland, by any measure, but during that period of time he did not hold up.  Another interesting thing that you talked about and I want you to touch on a little bit.  And I know we’re kind of jumping around but they’re fascinating things.  Talk a little bit about this book that was written by Keating’s brother Martin, Governor Frank Keating’s brother Martin.  When was that book…?  What?  That is an amazing story.  But that book was written ahead of the time and what was the name of the character?  Who was in this?


Holland: The governor of Oklahoma at the time of the bombing was named Frank Keating.  He was former Assistant Secretary to the Treasury and in fact, in charge of the ATF during the Reagan administration.  He later became governor of Oklahoma and it was his first term during the bombing.  The bombing happened in 1995.  Three years before the bombing, his brother, Martin Keating, wrote a book called The Final Jihad.  We confirmed this with the publisher and Martin Keating himself confirmed it on the Stan Sullivan Show, that he wrote this book three years before the bombing.  It features a character named Ted McVeigh, who was involved in a plot to bomb the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, a plot that is foiled when a state highway patrolman pulls him over.  Now, he wrote this fictional account of Ted McVeigh trying to bomb a federal building and getting foiled by a state trooper in 1992.  1995, his brother was governor of the state of Oklahoma when a Tim McVeigh did blow up a federal building and was pulled over and arrested by a highway patrol officer.  It’s just too ludicrous but we can’t make it up.  It’s true.  It’s confirmed.  And we’re not going to ignore it and we just lay it out there.


Austin: And it’s kind of funny too because this was around the exact same time that Tim McVeigh was supposedly getting in and out of special forces, operations and things like this.  So someone like Martin Keating, who had connections with his brother, Frank Keating, could have obviously been privy to certain information regarding Tim McVeigh and maybe what the potential plans were for him.


Bill: So what’s the dating of the book, guys?  When did it first come out?


Holland: The book was published in 1995.  When we talked to the publisher, they confirmed that the book was actually written in ’92.  The second edition was printed in 1996, after the bombing.  There were some revisions made to the second edition but the Ted McVeigh character is still there.  So the book was actually released by the publisher in 1994, a year before the bombing.


Bill: A year before the bombing.  And you can go… I just went to Amazon quick.  You can buy the book.  This is not very deep op.  This book is available right now.  You can go buy it and read it and trace the steps back to see what… I have not read the book.


Holland: I’ve read it and it’s very interesting.  There are also references to 911 in the book.  There is a mass terrorist attack where the President is in Florida and planes failed to intercept hijacked airplanes and mass bombings.  It’s really a very, very interesting book.


Austin: Either this guy is connected very deeply and understood what was going to happen or he’s one of the most brilliant psychics I’ve ever seen in my life.


Holland: But he’s the brother of Frank Keating so we can just go with the simplistic explanation there.


Bill: Well and connect some dots that maybe aren’t connected in other places.  Are the characterizations of the bad guys…? Are they these Elohim City Arian racist type people that the Southern Poverty Law Office would hate and all of this?  Does it fit that profile?


Holland: The book actually profiles, I think, an alliance between domestic, radical right-wingers and Arab terrorists and I think that actually plays in… Here’s the thing about Oklahoma City.  It did not come off according to their script.  You see the same thing with these attacks.  Everyone says, “Well, the government could never pull off something like that.”  Well, usually they do mess it up.  We saw with 911 and Building 7, I’m sure that was a mistake.  With Oklahoma City, there appears to have been a script that they could not execute afterwards.  They were probably going to rope in a whole lot of people on the radical right, into this vast conspiracy.  The thing is they messed it up.  I have interviewed people who were going to be implicated in this bombing.  The FBI had produced forged phone records to try to tie these people to Tim McVeigh.  Unfortunately for the FBI, they didn’t know that these people that they were trying to implicate in the bombing were very savvy to sting operations and they were using verified cut outs phone operations.  So the FBI was forging records with people who didn’t exist to try to implicate these people and they messed it up.  And after that, they just played catch-up.


Bill: Well, you guys remember the period of time… When did Hilary Clinton first use that phrase?


Holland: That’s right-wing conspiracy…


Bill: Yeah.


Holland: I think she made that up. I think that was in the script.  I think that was going to be part of the script afterwards.


Austin: That’s continued on, even to this day.  If you look at the propaganda in the news now, they’re trying to do the same things.  The people that are really dangerous or the returning veterans are all crazy.


Holland: Yeah, that’s certainly the playbook, isn’t it?


Bill: And does that theme run through The Final Jihad?  Are the returning veterans in that too or is it just…?


Holland: It’s mainly concentrating on the Arab angle and that’s something we couldn’t cover in depth with the documentary A Noble Lie.  You can check out the trailer at  But we really couldn’t check out the Arab connection too heavily.  And there was a verified Arab connection.  I believe they were involved in parking the truck outside the building.  We interviewed people who saw the explosives being planted inside the building and that operation seemed to be run from Elohim City and that angle.  It appears that the Arab connection was running security and running diversions and actually involved in parking the truck outside the building.  But the actual destruction to the building was caused by bombs inside the building.  We interviewed General Parton, former head of Air Force weapons development.  He analyzed Murrah Building.  He concluded in his report that there were at least four explosive devices planted at columns within the building.


Austin: And the Eglin Air Force base tests that the Air Force conducted themselves to try to recreate that bomb at the Murrah Building… They built this weak structure and then built these big bombs and exploded next to it, inside it and they couldn’t ever recreate the type of structural damage that was seen at the Murrah Building.  And even in their own report they said, “The only way that you could have seen the shredding of the concrete rebar like that was if you had contact explosive placed directly on those beams.”


Holland: Yeah, there were three seismographs in Oklahoma that recorded two different explosions.  The official representative of the Oklahoma geological survey said there was two bombs.


Bill: And you did not get that ammonium nitrate gas cloud that would have taken place, right?  That took place in Madison when those crazies did the math building up there, right?  Wasn’t there….


Holland: Yeah, that’s documented in the film.  Oh yeah, ammonium nitrate is a low explosive and the signature of an ammonium nitrate explosion is an ammonium nitrate cloud.  The only other time an ammonium nitrate bomb that has been used in America was the 1970 bombing of the Army math lab.  Huge cloud.  Two-dozen people, rubberneckers who came out to check it out, they had to be taken to the hospital.  Their lungs were seared.


Austin: Yeah, that would just fry your lungs.  I worked in bioenvironmental engineering for the Air Force and ammonium nitrate is one of the things that we always took the most precaution on.  So you have these first responders down there in Oklahoma City that morning.


Bill: Yeah Sergeant Yeakey would’ve went down like Joe Frazier, right?  Down goes Frazier.  He would’ve been down, instantly.  Not pulling people out of the rubble.


Holland: Oh yeah, everyone would have been down and there would have been far less survivors if that cloud had been going into the building.  Those people would not have been able to breathe.  No one reports any problems with respiration at all.


Bill: Well, I want to talk a little bit about the kind of… Again, we’re popping back and forth here but I want to go back a little bit and talk about the kind of people that tend to show up in these ops.  And this whole concept of patsies.  Are there real bad guys?  And just what’s the lay of the land?  And I’ll tell you, one of the reasons, guys, and I’m up here in Illinois, in Thompson, Illinois.  And you probably don’t know what’s here in Thompson, Illinois.  But there’s a prison up here, about a half mile from where I’m sitting that President Obama wanted to bring that entire Gitmo operation.  Do you remember that?  A few years ago, they were going to bring them all here to Illinois.  Well that’s right where I sit.  It’s just a half a mile away from me.  So if we would have got that prison and that whole Gitmo operation, wouldn’t we have inherited some other strange stuff, in terms of the mind control stuff?  And I know this sounds like crazy talk but talk a little bit about some of these players that are in charge of the behavioral operations as well.


Holland: After McVeigh was arrested, he was placed… Well, the defense counsel started consulting a Dr. Jolyon West out of the UCLA neuropsychiatric department.  Dr. Jolyon West is a somewhat controversial figure.  He kind of has a two-pronged presence in American history.  One, he is the go-to guy expert on crazies and cults.  He worked with Sirhan Sirhan, Patty Hurst, and Jack Ruby.  Number two; he was one of the largest MK-ULTRA subcontractors under the CIA.  He worked in MK-ULTRA starting as far back as the 1950s.  Their mind control program, MK-ULTRA.  He worked in the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s under MK-ULTRA or its later incarnations.  You have Dr. Jolyon West telling the defense counsel how to deal with McVeigh.  When they want a regular psychiatrist for McVeigh, Dr. Jolyon West recommends his protégé, a Dr. John Smith, who treats McVeigh for several months while he’s incarcerated.  Dr. John Smith is later chief of psychiatry at Guantanamo Bay.


Bill: Wow.


Austin: Yeah, the connections of this thing are eerie, creepy.  When you really look at it, it’s almost like some crazy movie or something.


Bill: So some of these guys at Guantanamo… Are these the guys that have been trained and re-released in places like Libya, maybe?


Holland: Yeah, you see that.  You see like the news, “Oh, we were so nice to release some people from Guantanamo Bay.”  And then they turn into be international terrorist.  Well, we picked those guys up when they were 14 years old in Afghanistan.  We release them 10 years later and they turn into terrorists.  What has happened to them in 10 years?  Guantanamo Bay, there’s at least another camp at Guantanamo Bay that is not on the map that besides Camp X-Ray, where God knows what happens there.  They call it Camp Nowhere because it’s not on the map. But it’s there and the guards there talk about it.  They see it.  So there is some kind of mind control laboratory going on at Guantanamo Bay.  And they’re taking these people and incarcerating them and they have them under their will for a decade or more.  They can turn them into terrorists.  They are manufacturing enemies for the War on Terror.


Bill: What’s the three Ds that I heard discussed?  The dependency, debilitation and dread, yeah.


Holland: Dr. Jolyon West invented those terms because he was first contracted with MK-ULTRA to study brainwashing techniques and he came up with the methodology, the three Ds.


Austin: So you’ve got McVeigh right after this thing happens and they just rush this mind control doctor in there.  It just begs the question, were they trying to control his mind?  Was his mind already controlled and they were just merely trying to keep it under control after that?  What was going on?


Holland: Something we couldn’t really go into the movie in depth because we simply didn’t have time.  It’s two hour running length.  But we had to cut out so much.  But one of the things was that a study of Tim McVeigh’s military records was very revealing.  Or intriguing.  Because he was having medical or dental appointments almost every week for the entire last half of his enlistment.  Sometimes more than once a week.  This is inexplicable.  He was in the combat arms.  You’re not given that level of medical care.  I have interviewed people in his platoon.  I have interviewed the guy who was in the tank with him in the Persian Gulf War.  They said he never had any health problems.  He never missed any time.  Why is he having all of these hundreds of appointments with these people?  And some of the names are blacked out of these doctors he’s meeting with.  We really don’t know what’s going on there.


Bill: Doctors and dentists as well?


Holland: Exactly.  Doctors and dentists.  That’s one line of the investigation we are still pursuing.  It appears that some of these doctors and dentists were not actually doctors or dentists.  They may have been linked to special operations.


Bill: And what was his rank at the time again?  He was always a low level fellow, wasn’t he?


Holland: He left as an E-5, a Sergeant.


Bill: As a Sergeant, okay.  Yeah, that’s fascinating.  So what do you think his mental…? And I was thinking as you guys were talking about MK-ULTRA and all that, I was thinking about is it possible… And I know people will probably say, “Hey, you watch too many movies.”  Maybe I watch too many movies but like the first Bourne movie.  Do you remember where they’re trying to get him back?  Where one of his handlers go back and I forget if they’re in Paris or someplace.  And he’s trying to get him back.  Could that have been what happened when they rushed Smith to him?  Did they try to get him back somehow or to make sure that they had coded or something that would affect his testimony?


Austin: Well, I think that some people say that McVeigh felt that this building was going to blow up at night when there weren’t any children inside.  I think that what happens after McVeigh realized how much crap he was in, he was taking off running.  They caught him.  They brought him back and I think they rushed these people in there to gain control over his mental state to calm him down so he didn’t reveal any of the operation.


Holland: I have interviewed members of the defense team, who spent hours and hours sitting at the same table in the same room with McVeigh, talking to him.  They would ask him, “Why will you not finger the other people involved?”  His exact words were, “I gave them my word.”  There may have been other factors.  The fact that we don’t know exactly what happened to McVeigh, they never released his full records, even though the court ordered them to.  His psychological records were never released.  This case is still open.  We are still pursuing the investigation.  If you have any information on the bombing, contact us at [email protected] and we’ll get back to you.  We are still pursuing this.


Bill: An amazing indictment about just our media, our control grid, guys.  Any, as we kind of wrap up here, any other… I think one of the things that can be done is exactly what you’re doing so if you want to keep this sort of thing from happening, you expose it and then they’re less likely… I wouldn’t want the next documentary to be made on me if you guys were behind this.  You guys are doing exhaustive research and work.  Do you think that’s a deterrent in and of itself, in addition to the research?  Aren’t you just deterring future episodes of this?


Holland: I think so.  I hope so.  I think, by exposing the false flag tool and letting people know what it is… Because this is what they go to in times of desperation.  The fact is the political establishment in this climate would benefit from another terrorist attack.  We have the war drums pounding for Iran.  We have a lot of domestic dissent against us.  With everything, the two party system that’s happening with government and how they’re running it off the cliff.  There’s a lot of tension in this country today that could be relieved by a convenient terrorist attack that kind of blows that steam in one direction, in the direction of our preferred enemy, that serves the political establishment’s purposes at the time.  So if we expose this so when it happens again, people see it for what it is and refuse to cooperate with whatever horrific agenda they’re going to push down our throats afterwards.


Austin: Not only that but we’ve got to bring the people that were involved in the cover up back in Oklahoma City and the people that were involved in the government operations that were running these things.  Many of these people, like we said Eric Holder is one example, are still in charge in positions of power and authority today.  So by exposing these people and the things that they did back then, hopefully we can derail their progress here in the future.


Bill: And there’s a sense in which Yeakey’s blood cries from the ground for justice, right?  These are real people.  Real lives.  His families are alive, man.  Justice needs to be done in this case.  I’m also wondering, you guys, how are you being treated?  In other words… Usually they do one of two things.  They demonize you or they pretend you don’t exist.


Holland: Well, they’re pretending we don’t exist so far.  We’ve only been a release for a month and a half, if that.  So we really haven’t made a huge splash yet.  But that’s going to happen soon and it’s going to be interesting to ask how they try to deal with this movie in Oklahoma at the very least.  How the media is going to try to deal with this movie in Oklahoma, if they’re going to try to ignore it, if they’re going to try to slam it.  They really can’t attack it on factuality because most of our witnesses are government employees, cops, and first responders.  All of our documents are either court documents or the government’s own documents.  So they really can’t go after us factually.  In fact, I invite anyone who is going to apologize for the official story.  I formally invite you to a debate right now.


Austin: Absolutely.  We didn’t have to make anything up or speculate about anything.  There was so much hard, concrete evidence to draw upon.  In fact, we could have made a ten-hour movie.  We had to really boil it down to what we felt were the biggest points to make.  People have to realize that this is just the beginning of this story.  We’re just pointing you in the right direction.  We encourage you to get this film at and spread it to your family and show everybody you know and say, “Let’s get to the bottom of this.”  And you continue on the investigation.


Holland: The reaction we’re getting from people who have watched this is… and a lot of people in Oklahoma have heard a few stories and rumors.  They kind of know the official story is shaky.  But just shock at the huge, credible body of evidence that has been ignored and suppressed by the government and the official story.  If you nothing or anything about the bombing, this movie will enlighten you as to how things work.


Bill: And when you get this, don’t expect it to be a bunch of crazy, wild-eyed Elohim City type people that are making these accusations.  As Austin and Holland are saying, these are folks… The people are police officers that are in this.  They’re first responders.  They’re federal employees.  These aren’t crazy people.  They’re the kind of people that live next door to you, right guys?


Austin: These are some of the most credible witnesses you’ll ever see in any documentary ever.  Jane Graham, who was not only in the building and around the building in the weeks prior to the bombing, this woman has testified in front of Congress on labor issues.  We didn’t have to go drag up some crazies because we had all the people who were credible and there that day that were willing to come forward and put their neck on the line and say, “This is the truth.  This is how it happened.”


Bill: So you guys have had no real brushes with any trouble or danger?  It would seem to me the way they’ve treated folks that have done and you guys have done a brave and courageous thing and when you’ve confronted evil here, you’ve taken it head on.  So I want to compliment you on it, but also just say have you had any brushes with any trouble?


Austin: I think that’s an excellent question.  We’ve actually been asked that before.  I just want to say we have a lot of people in this area in Oklahoma who are, I don’t want to say protecting us, but looking after us because they want us to be able to continue on to do the work that we’re doing and get this information out there.  Not everybody in positions of power and authority are corrupt.  A lot of these people know that they system is corrupt.  They know that there are problems.  And when they see something like this, they get behind it.  And so I think that people need to realize that real terrorists are these people operating under the disguise of official government and they’re like bullies on the playground when you were a kid.  If you just stand up to them, they’ll back down.


Bill: Why do folks like Larry Potts and Louis Freeh…? Why do guys like that tend to rise to more power?  Why do the bad guys seem to rise in some agencies and the good guys tend to be at field positions?


Holland: It’s the nature of power, of monopoly power.  The FBI is an institution and it’s more interested in protecting itself rather than truth and justice.  They did not pursue this investigation in a forthright manner.  But the fact is, if you’re going to rise in management in the ATF or the FBI or probably most federal law enforcement agencies, if you’re going to rise to management, you have to demonstrate some psychopathic behavior.  You have to engage in the cover up.  You have to have grease on you.  They don’t allow good street agents to rise to the top.  There were agents resigned over Oklahoma City.  The FBI chemist at the FBI crime lab resigned over this case because they saw that they were manufacturing evidence in the FBI crime lab.  I knew Dr. Frederic Whitehurst.  I’ve talked to other FBI.  I have actually read the 302s of other FBI agents who saw what was going on and resigned because of it.  If you’re going to rise to the top in these oppressive agencies, you’re going to have to be… I mean, scum rises to the top.


Austin: Yeah, I love that movie Training Day as an example.  You can’t have a clean cop in your organization because then everybody who is on the take can’t trust you.


Bill: Yeah, well this is tough stuff, guys.  But you’ve done a great job.  My hat’s off to you.  Is there anything else?  You can get this movie. You should get this film at  You should get probably some melatonin or something because you probably won’t sleep after you watch it for the first day or two.  But again, you guys took this head on and I just want to say thank you so much for spending time with us and that you so much for the work that you’re doing, the research that you’re doing.

Listeners, watch this film.  Thanks so much, guys, for being on the show today.


Austin: Thank you so much.


Holland: Yes, it’s been great.  Have us on again.  Thank you.

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