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Are We Involved in Collective Child Sacrifice? with E. Ray Moore, Jr. – Episode 96

Proverbs 22:6 tells us to train up our children when they are young and when they are old, they will not depart from the teachings and values we have sought to instill. This proverb clearly indicates that there is a point of beginning (child), an interim (youth), and then a point of stability (adulthood) in the training process. However, it seems we are quite willing to shortcut this process and toss our children—our futures, if you will—into the shark-infested waters of public school indoctrination when they are young and impressionable.

Are we any different than the ancient pagan civilizations who sacrificed their children to the gods? Cutting their beating hearts out with an obsidian stone isn’t the only way to kill a child.

Off The Grid Radio
Ep 096
Released: April 6th, 2012

Bill: And welcome everybody, today’s show we’re going to talk about the ultimate control grid, Jeff. Pastor Jeff Harlow. Jeff, welcome and thanks for being with us as well.

Jeff: Thank you, Bill, it’s a delight.

Bill: We’re going to talk about the ultimate control grid and that control grid at least from my perspective and maybe from yours as well, is the public indoctrination centers. We call them schools public schools and our guest is really a specialist in that area and has done some amazing work and cut some amazing ground, plowed some amazing ground in that area. Jeff you want to read his bio and then we’ll get right into talking to our guest.

Jeff: Absolutely. E. Ray Moore, Jr. is a Bible teacher, Army Reserve chaplain retired and campaign consultant. Graduate of the Citadel, he served 30 years in pastoral ministry as a campus pastor at both the University of South Carolina and Purdue University. He’s a pastor teacher in the local church and has served as an Army chaplain. He also has served as a speaker/lecturer in a university setting on public policy, church, state and theological subjects and has served as a campaign manager, campaign assistant or campaign consultant for some 12 major political campaigns. He is considered an authority on involving Christians in politics and government and we are delighted to have him on our show. We are delighted. Ray thanks for being with us today.


Ray: Thank you. That’s a lot of stuff there but I’m 68 years old so I’ve been around a long time.


Bill: Well you know, we had to cut out…..I told Jeff to cut out about ¾ of your bio just so it wouldn’t take up the whole show.


Ray: Well you know I’m also a father and a grandfather. Seven grandchildren and four adult children. We’ve been married nearly 42 years.


Bill: You’ve been around, done a lot of stuff, you’re also the author of the book, The Promise of Jonadab which is a great book as we had mentioned before the show. We’ll try to get you back on to talk about family preparedness and that book. But for the purposes of today’s show what I think would be good to talk about is, you know, we’ve got ourselves in this school business and it’s really fascinating to me, we’ve got…for example, and Jeff would know. Clinton was not too far from us. You’re driving to Clinton and there’s one of the schools there is Horace Mann school and you know the average American wouldn’t know anything about Horace Mann. They would think you would be in early John Dewey, an early pioneer in education and wouldn’t think anything of it other than here’s this pioneer but let’s talk a little bit Ray about the philosophy of education because what I think that I’ve learned from, especially from our mutual friend Dr. Rushdoony, is this idea of the lack of any neutrality in education. Do you want to start out and speak to that so we have a foundational structural for our show?


Ray: Okay, well in the Christian context, using Ephesians 6:1-4 as an example it says, “Raise them up, raise the children up in the fear and abnoition of the Lord.” The word abnoition is actually Greek word for idea, you could be saying raise them up in the fear and the culture of the Lord. It’s more than just about an education that separated you a life but actually Christian education takes in all of life so we want to see Christ in the math class and in the history class and in the science class as much as in the Bible class. Unfortunately even evangelical Christians have fallen into this strict separation, you know between life and faith. And uh, that’s a false model.

So, we’re basically trying to get Christians to look at education as acculturation. It’s not just about areas of knowledge, subjects but it’s actually all of life. And of course state education, public education has completely rejected that model. At least from a Christian point of view. Actually they do integrate faith, it’s secularism, humanism or liberalism socialism and evolution is at the foundation of all secularism which Christians hardly ever reject. So we just can’t have our children in those schools anymore and actually it’s been going on a long time. And you mention Horace Mann, everybody, Christian, non-Christian see him as the father of public education. He has been given that honor and he deserves it.

He was a virulent anti-Christian, anti-Calvinist and he saw, if you go back and look at the founders, state run public education say 1830’s on, they thought it as a way of undermining our Christian heritage in education and also an indirect blick assault on our republican form of government. It’s all there in the founders of the [Inaudible 05:53] book written by R.J. Rushdoony called The Messianic Character of American Education and it’s probably the classic of book on that topic and he wrote about this in 1963. Interesting when that book came out, probably one of the more important books for Christians up to that point on education and the book was totally ignored, wasn’t reviewed at all in the Evangelical Press, I mean magazines and newspapers and groups like Christianity Today just ignored the book. They didn’t write against it, they just ignored it. But it was viciously attacked in the secular humanist academic journals. It was reviewed quite a bit by the enemy and they saw his book as real threat to their monopoly in education. But the Christian community at that time was still asleep and they didn’t realize that he had uncovered something that would be important for them to know.


Bill: And you definitely focus then on this idea of neutrality in that book and I thinking that Horace Mann knew that there was no neutrality. That’s, and I think that Rush kind of liked a lot of these guys that were what he, what [Inaudible 07:08] called epistemologically self-conscious. In other words, he knew what he was doing. Horace Mann was not a fool.


Ray: Right.


Bill: And neither was John Dewey and neither are a lot of the folks that are in positions of power, educational power today. They’re acting very self-consciously towards their goals but from, if you believe in Christianity you probably believe that God created the universe with a purpose. Right? And so, if you believe that the world, if you teach that the world came about by chance, gee from the starting line that you’re going to get some really different conclusions, right?


Ray: Right.


Bill: If you, if God made world with purpose and meaning and gave you some rules to live by, that’s one course. Another course is total meaninglessness where you’re your own God, you’re your own boss, you decide what’s right and wrong. And then to choose the later course as a matter of policy, what’s always been curious to me, and then to wonder why we have all the problems in the system.


Ray: A lot of Christians know these things. They just don’t act on what they know. And then they have this faulty model of salt and light or children being missionaries in public schools. This is the biggest excuse that we hear for not taking your schools out of public schools and giving them an entirely Christian education, either through home schooling or Christian day schools. And they constantly throw up salt and light. I’ve been in pastoral ministry over 30 years and I’ve noticed and I’m sure that you and I, Jeff Albright the same way, but no Christian will go out and say, “Well today I’m going to go out and disobey God.” “I’m going to flagrantly ignore his word.” They don’t do that. They try to find a Bible verse that gives them an excuse to do what they want to do.

So the main haven for Christians who don’t want to educate their children christianly is, in Matthew 5:13 & 14 where they say, “They’re salt and light.” And this is the biggest thing that we have to deal with. And of course we say that salt and light, being salt and light is a standard behavior for all Christians in all situations but there’s no command there and no expectation by the Lord that we put our children in harm’s way in a pagan, godless public school system. It’s a distortion or twisting of scripture. Using scripture or arguments that don’t apply and that our children are being placed in danger. So we really spend a lot of time trying to contest that misinterpretation or mis-utilization of that text.


Bill: Well I think, Jeff do you want to comment on any of that or you..?

Jeff: Well it certainly seems to me that this all comes back to whether we are willing to obey the first commandment because sending your children into an environment where they’re going to be taught specifically anti-Christian theory and practices seems to me to be a compromise at that very most basic level of who is God and who are we going to bow and worship? My wife and I home schooled our children and have been involved in Christian’s schools for almost 20 years now. And we really saw it coming down to that level. And so, you know, I see it, at one point, I’m looking at your website, I didn’t find it but I actually saw you called the government schools pharaoh schools and wondering if you can comment on that?


Ray: Well we, I’ve been doing this ministry, Jeff and Bill, about 15 years. My wife and I go back to 1977 when we first started home schooling our oldest son who’s now 41. So we have a long history. But I have to say it took me a long time to grow to where I am today. Initially we just started home schooling it was just about our son and us. We didn’t have any idea that it was necessarily applicable to everybody and other people. So it took us awhile to kind of grow. I can’t remember when I first read The Messianic Character of American Education it was a shaping book for me. He’s written other books along the same line, Dr. Rushdoony. Of course there were other writers who helped me along the way but yes we, I kind of lost your question there, Jeff. Give it back to me again.


Bill: Well and I’m sorry, it was a rambling one. Basic it seems to me that at the core, what we are really facing is a question of are we going to accept the polytheism of our culture or we going to stand forward and say, “There is no God but the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?” and it seems to me that that is going to come through in the way we educate our children that the schools are offering a view that says either there are no gods or all gods are equal. And it seems to me the salt and light argument should be contrasted with you know, this basic one, and I think saw on your website that you actually characterized the government schools as pharaoh schools.


Ray: Right.


Bill: Perhaps you could speak to that in general.


Ray: The reason we did that, the story of the deliverance of the children of Israel from bondage of [Inaudible 12:38] is one of the most powerful stories you know in the Bible for both Christians and Jews and it seems to be carried over in much of the New Testament literature. So we, we feel like the state run public schools are a form of bondage to our church to our Christian communities, especially to our children. So it’s sort of an analogy that sort of catches the imagination of people. People can see it and it’s been a, I started doing this like I said 15 years ago with this message, the first thing I did was I wrote a little pamphlet you know, called Exodus Mandate or Let My Children Go. And I didn’t have a book, I didn’t have a video, I didn’t have a website but the Lord kind of gave that to me through some study and I go back from time to time and look at it. I’m just amazed at how I haven’t felt a need to change it or amend it. It’s a very short little sermon in a pamphlet for and everything that we’ve done since then has kind of grown out of that. It’s like a mission statement.

So we say the Exodus Mandate ministry or project is a Christian ministry to encourage and assist Christian families to leave behind the government schools or pharaoh schools as we sometimes say for the promise land of Christian schools or home schooling. And additionally we state that it’s our prayer and hope that a fresh obedience by Christian families and educating their children according to God’s commands will prove to be a key for the revival of our families, our churches and our culture. And actually that’s our mission statement and everything we do sort of flows out of those two statements and that little pamphlet we wrote 15 years ago.

Bill: Ray, when you wrote that pamphlet, my guess is your being an Army chaplain, Rushdoony thing kind of went away but your book I think you drew a little heat again from the people from the same, really from a lot of Christians in a way. You draw heat from that group. Do you want to speak to that? I mean there’s a kind of a toughness that you need to have.


Ray: Yeah we do. We’re actually a ministry to the church. To the culture too and we see, we want unsaved people to get their kids in Christian schools so they can get converted to Christ. We’re basically trying to correct a problem that’s in the Evangelical church. They handed their children over to these state schools and maybe we can take them in and review how that happen with Horace Mann in a minute. So we’re trying to bring back that the case of educating of children is part of our obligation. A lot of Evangelicals people, particularly Baptist and that’s my background, they call themselves the great commission people. They’re all about evangelism and winning people to Christ. They just live and breathe the great commission. But if you really look at that text carefully, it is about evangelism but it says the text says, Jesus commanded us to disciple the nations and that’s more than just evangelism.

Evangelism is the first step so it goes, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and lo I’m with you always. Then he goes in verse 20, teaching them. This means that he not only handed over the evangelism mandate and disciple mandate but the way that’s done is through teaching or education. So we’re just simply saying, we’re trying to put K-12 education back in the great commission where it’s been taken out by most Christians. So they’re out there doing evangelism they winning people to Christ and they’re coming in the front door of the church if they’re doing a good job but their own children are going out the back door if they’ve allowed them to be disciple by pagan education. And these are some of the kind of arguments we use and it doesn’t catch people’s attention when you tell a Baptist that he’s violated the great commission it’s gets his attention pretty quick.


Bill: I’m sure.


Ray: He thinks he’s doing evangelism. Alright now back to Horace Mann if we can take a minute on that. And this is on our movie Indoctrination which I heartedly recommend to your people. It’s really the big tool that we have now nationally and it’s really going very strongly all over the nation and we have lots of groups promoting it. We’re very excited about that. But in our movie and in our books as well, we kind of talk about the history of the time line of state sponsored public education. It’s not well known this is sort of a carefully protected piece of information but it’s easy to find. For the first 220 years of American history we had no state sponsored public education. All the education was done by churches and families.

In New England when the Puritans came over they came over by congregations. They came in as a Christina community so they set up a local church, the elders were often the magistrates or the mayors of the towns and the churches ran the schools so in New England it was sort of a combination of a community church/school. Because everybody was in the church and everybody was in the community. In some cases they had a small subsidy tax subsidy but generally people paid for their own education. And they were totally Christian. They used catechism and you can see the model. So the denominations ran their own schools. The Puritans or the congregations had their schools, Presbyterians, Lutherans had their schools. Anglos had their schools. About 1830 there was a situation happened in terms of immigration that destabilized this culture of education and the, was a large influx of Catholics in the North, Philadelphia, Boston, New York and they came in by the hundreds of thousands from, many from Ireland because of the potato famine.

Prior to that American had been almost an entirely Protestant nation, it was a reformed view was very dominant of course Lutherans, Anglicans but even some of the Anglicans were Calvinist and that was a dominant view in the culture and it really guided the culture, guided education. When the Catholics started immigrating, it sort of spooked the clergy, the Protestant clergy and Horace Mann and this is all in the movie Indoctrination and Samuel Blumenfeld has done an excellent job of writing about this. They sold to the Protestant clergy the idea that we can pool our resources in a state run public model. You keep your particular doctrines of the Trinity and Redemption and Christ at home but we’ll have a general kind of generic brand Protestant school system and we’ll have the Ten Commandments and the Lord’s Prayer and in some cases they kept some of the more explicit Christian views and we’ll use the public system to convert Catholics to Protestants.

And many went for it, many didn’t so that was the model and some warned like A.A. Hodge of course he was many years later, but warned against the use of that system. They didn’t’ agree with say catholic theology but they felt it was wrong to use state public education to course their children. The Catholics pulled away and formed their own school system. They’ve had a parochial school system ever since and the Protestants were sort of stuck with this model which is not as bad today, then as it was today. They had Christianity in some of the schools and if the church would dominant in one culture in many ways they acted like Christian schools. That began to radically change in 1947 with the Everson case and 1962 and ’63 we had the prayer and Bible reading cases.

So effectively since 1962 have been 8 or 10 major Supreme Court cases and some district court cases that have officially expelled pre-Christianity from public education by a presemt and practice so this is, a brief history of it. Most Christians didn’t realize that it was set up on an improper basis from the very beginning it was a faulty model and it really took about 150 years to get as bad as it did. But now we are having all the debris and garbage of a faulty pagan secular education system washing up on our shores and Christians are sort of coming to realize it but they are realizing it.


Bill: Ray, talk a little about, I think our listeners really love the founding fathers; we spend a lot of time talking about the founding father, even, my guess is that even Thomas Jefferson would find the public schools today sickening. You know he, You don’t get a, he’s called a DS, he’s probably not a DS, but you don’t even get a guy like, a crypto skeptic like Jefferson, he was reared educationally by Scottish Presbyterians, he went to William and Mary at a time when William and Mary was a godly school. And you know, all these men, I always say the greatest generation doesn’t have anything to do with Tom Brokaw it has everything to do with these guys. Probably one of the greatest generations that ever lived. But all these guys if you want these guys to have what the founders had, if you want to go back and say, we want these presuppositions of the founding fathers, you’re not going to get that in an educational system from you know, sponsored by the government Indoctrination centers today. It’s impossible to expect Patrick Henry’s to come out of the public school system and anybody who thinks any different is just nuts. They may be well meaning but they’re just nuts. Do you want to speak a little about the founding fathers and what [Inaudible 23:36].


Ray: Ok. I’ll try to do that. Essentially what we’re saying and I’ll get it in in a minute. Is that the scriptures assigns education of children to the family with assistant from the church and the government or the state has no jurisdiction in the area of education of children. So we would call it, put it under a, jurisdictionally under the church and under the family. So they’ve usurped that role. Now going back to the founding era, there was no such thing as state run public education when the Constitution and that whole era. They would’ve been, it was a total, it would’ve been totally contradiction to their whole way of thinking. They would’ve generally subscribed to what I just said that about the position that education belongs to the family with assistance from the church. And there’s nothing in the constitution about education. And we have a document has remunerated powers so their view that the government at the federal level only has powers that was given to them.

So if education is not listed then they don’t have that role, they don’t have that right and apparently during the Bill of Rights and I don’t have the quote right in front of me so we’re going to have to paraphrase it. There was a discussion when the Bill of Rights came in a couple of years after the first Constitution documents in its main form was passed. The bill of rights was actually passed 1791. And there was a discussion during that period about education and they rejected, I don’t know if it became an amendment of effort. Thomas, excuse me, James Madison and he was the fourth president and he is considered the father of the Constitution. And he probably had more to do with writing it and drafting it then any single person and by the way he was home schooled up to about 11 or 12 and then went to a classical Christian school and then articulated to Princeton and it was called the College of New Jersey at that time when he was 16.

So he never went to a secular school a day in his life. It was all Christian all the way through. But he made a statement along these lines and I’m paraphrasing it, “Where the government takes unto itself the role of education of children it would undermine of the very form of a constitution or republic that we’re seeking to create.” So he recognized if the government got in the education business it would undermine the very form of government that we have and that’s exactly what it’s doing today. So we think that government education at k-12 level is a contradiction of faith and not what the founders envisioned. Now Thomas Jefferson did make some statements about public education. I don’t think he saw it in the ways that is presented today, some of the founders used the term public education and they simply meant by that that it should be available to everybody. They didn’t see this cohesive top down model that we have today. You know run by the state and even in New England you could say they had sort of a public education, they were community schools but they were church schools too. So I hope that helps a little bit but really this model that we have today starts with Horace Mann about 1830 to 1840.


Bill: It helps a lot. As I said, I’m thinking a lot of people want to know, how can we produce men? Even men like Jefferson, not that Christian people want them to grow up little Jefferson’s. But doers, strong men, Patrick Henry I think probably is as and George Washington are as good as goals if you’re a father and say, “I want my son to be like somebody.” I don’t think you could pick a better model than Patrick Henry or George Washington. So I think that that’s always in view in other words what educationally created this country and if you want to get back to some kind of freedom. You’ve got to get off this control grid we talk about and you talk about in the wonderful film Indoctrination that that’s exactly what it is its Indoctrination and as Madison said it’s doing exactly what he thought it would do.


Ray: Right.


Bill: It’s unbelievable.


Ray: And if you look at Alex Tocqueville, came to the United Sates in the 1830’s and wrote his famous book Democracy in America of course we didn’t have state run education then he wrote about you know how educated American people were and the stock boy and the farm hand and the dockhand could argue philosophy. So this, we basically birthed the United States on the back of private Christian education and even home schooling was very common back in those days. A lot of the founders, like George Washington you know were home schooled on their farm and had tutors and their parents would train them. It wasn’t looked upon as decision because they did that. That was, and they didn’t, if they went to school they sometimes didn’t’ go to school until they hit puberty.

And so this is a model that really birthed the American republic and so this model, this state education model that Horace Mann brought in and it really was a copy of the Prussian model. He had gone to Europe and studied the Prussian model which is part of Germany and is highly regimented society militaristic society and where the people were kept, the pee-ones and the working people were kept down and the wealthy class got a certain type of education. They didn’t want a real education they thought of a reason to keep people in their place. He brought that model back to the United States and it just gradually grew and became dominant really by the turn of the 20th century. There’s a quote by AA Hodge. He was a professor of theology at Princeton and was arguably the leading Protestant Theologian you know, had in his day and he quoted, let me put your hand on that, you’ll be able to edit this won’t you?


Bill: Sure.


Ray: Hold on.


Bill: It’s a pretty long quote I can’t quite get it from memory but it’s a quote un-quote by A.A.Hodge and he said this in 1887. Ion 1887 the public state model had not become totally dominant through culture and he was one of American’s leading theologians and he said, “I am as sure, I am sure as I am of the fact of Christ reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education separated from religion as is now commonly proposed will prove the most appalling engine for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief and antisocial nelistic ethics which this thin real world has ever seen.” That was AA Hodge in 1887 as the public school system was really taking over and becoming completely dominant in our culture.

So by the turn of the 20th century most of the church schools had given up. Some still hold onto it, you’ll still see today remnants of it in the Lutheran churches in the Midwest particular the Lutheran Senate, Missouri Senate and Wisconsin Senate they have held onto their school system and to their great credit, some of the Presbyterians and Anglicans kept their private Christian schools but generally a lot of the free churches just capitulated completely, the Baptist in the south are some of the main supporters of state education. Course that is radically changing, we’re working our hearts out to try and change it here the Southeast. Our ministry is really involved in that. Some of that debate in the southern Baptist convention is reflected in the move Indoctrination as well.


Bill: We’ll talk a little bit about some of the fruit, now this is the negative side of this but the fruit that Hodge saw the fruit that James Madison saw. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that? Mention a little bit about where does all this goes. Again, It’s my contention that even if you were a good atheist I have atheists friends that are close friends of mine and you wouldn’t want your kid in a school just because the educational, what the children are going to get is basically insufficient as much as anything. But then it gets worse from there does it not?

Ray: Right. It’s, we, Barner Group has done some research on the world view of Christian children. I think he says that, again I don’t have this right in front of me but I’m pretty sure some of these details. That less than 10% of Christian children hold a Christian world view. Plus he also shows that about 51 or 52 % of Christian pastors have a Christian world view. So we’ve got to work on the Pastor’s as well. But the Neami Institute, I’d urge you to have them on the show because they have concentrated, Dan Smithwick and we’ve partnered with him for a decade or more in this fight. Neami Institute, I believe, .com and they’ve done a lot of research on the world view question. They’ve got a world view exam and they’ve been testing Evangelical children in three groups: Public Schools, Christian Schools and Home Schools since the 80’s and it is frightening to see the even the change since the 80’s. He’s basically shows that about 80% of Evangelical Christian children who’ve been public schooled through their careers are testing Marxist socialist on a Christian world view. They may be Christians, born again Christians but they don’t hold a consistent Christian world view.

Yet home schoolers and those who’ve gone to a classical Christian school or a principle approach Christian school generally score you know in the 60-70 percentile which is a good score in this exam. You know normally in regular schools you make 70 you’re just barely passing but he has his graded a little bit different. Some of the Christian children in our Christian schools are scoring moderate Christian or even socialist. And part of the reason is that they accept sometimes use secular curriculum and they haven’t really got a full integrated Christian world view curriculum. They’ve taken the children away from the worst aspects of public education, some of the violence and sexual education that goes on in these public schools but they don’t thoroughly integrate a strong Christian curriculum and that’s a battle we need to continue to fight. So there’s a lot of damage being done and I believe the Southern Baptist Christian Family Life Counsel in 2002 reported that losing about 80% of their children are dropping out of the church and forsaken the Christian faith if they’re in public schools, It may be that was just a general statistic.

So we, we’re reporting, we’re losing the next generation of our children. Ken Hamm has done some good writing on this, he’s written a book called Already Gone where he shows that the, anybody by the time they’ve gotten to the university level they’ve bailed out of the Christian faith. Dr. Brian Ray, I’m just giving you some data now but this is a hopeful point here. Dr. Brian Ray of the National Home Education Research Institute, he’s a leading researcher and home education, is accepted by both the Evangelical Christian community and the secular world. He did a study a few years ago, I think it was 2005 of 7,000 children who were home schooled who are now adults in their 20’s or 30’s and it was basically to see what their like, culturally, socially and religiously and happily we can report they’re very normal, very involved in their community, have stable marriages but most importantly of all the study shows that 93% of children who were home schooled are continuing on in the church and the Christian traditions of their parents. So we have some of that data so we really believe that it’s just from a practical point of view it’s become a necessity of Christian families if they really want to preserve their children’s souls and their lives in the things of God put them in a Christian school or home school.

Bill: Sure, do you remember, I don’t know if either of you guys remember? I was thinking when you were talking about George Grants wonderful speech. It was kind of a dumb and dumber speech but he starts out by saying, “I was robbed.” Do you remember that? Did you hear that?


Jeff: I heard that.

Bill: Have you heard that, Jeff?


Ray: I don’t remember that particular one but George is a great thinker.


Bill: George is a great thinker but here’s what’s going on. I don’t know how people can get ahold of that but it’s a great, it’s a great talk but he goes on to talk about who was the first president of the United States and it wasn’t Washington because he brings you up he laments the fact he went to public school and all this and he learned all this. But what’s interesting is he was so poorly educated he even said he was robbed but he didn’t pay anything for it, right? He got it all for free ostensibly. But he even in his speech says, “I was robbed.” Well he wasn’t robbed, he went there for free. I think what’s atrocious when you talk about that is even guys like George Grant who I love, really didn’t get an economics an understanding of economics and if we go off into the world people vote their pocket books right. So when these Marxist go out and you said earlier that Christians that are also marxis, I’m not sure, that could be, just that statement could be a problem with the educational system as well. Not sure you can be a Christian and a Marxist simultaneously any more than you can be a Christian and a porn star, but anyway.

Ray: Just in their belief system.

Bill: Well they can compartmentalize all of these different things.


Ray: They have the socialist belief system. They don’t really see the free market.


Bill: Yeah. But think about the damage that’s being done in the public school system with respect to economics because if anything you’ll get some kind of and this is true in colleges too, you might get some sort of you know macro, you might get don’t spend more money than you have in a micro class, a consumer class which is always good to never spend more money than you have but in terms of you know world view wise the textbooks that you get in public high schools are atrocious with respect to economics. There is no way you can send kids out into the world and have them understand how to use credit cards, how to save money why you should save money. Anything like that that’s in a public school system today. Probably not and again this is said with lament but I would be willing to bet most Christian schools are poor in that as well. But I think people go out and vote and when they hear somebody saying here’s some free stuff” and they go to church and they compartmentalize that and they say, “Free stuff, great, I love free stuff. Give me more free stuff.” And then whoevers got the most free stuff is the person they vote for even though you said there’s this compartmentalization they go to church on Sunday but there always going to vote for the guy that gives them the most free stuff.


Ray: Yeah [Inaudible 40:34] is costing us a lot actually.


Bill: I think that’s huge. I think that’s what’s breaking the country is our lack of understanding of economics and our desire and of course its’ never free stuff it’s always somebody else’s stuff that your taking when some politician promises it to you. There’s damage galore and of course there’s violence galore. You mention that in Indoctrination as well but what’s the way out in terms of I think, Ray, the problem is and I stated this before on the show I think the problem is people get very comfortable and an object in motion remains in motion, an object at rest, remains at rest. I had my kids in a public school for a long time finally the object, you know I just came to a conclusion I couldn’t do this anymore and I was helped by some public school teachers who said, the school that my kids are out, “You probably shouldn’t have your kids in this school anymore.” They were personal friends of mine so they even said your kids aren’t getting a good education and this was the teachers saying this to me in privately not at some meeting. But you know, don’t you think that people just get comfortable in whatever environment that they’re in church they get comfortable with their kids in school then you go the sports program. All of these moms they’re tired at the end of the day. Whose got the guts to stand up moms and dads after all of this and do something outstanding? Doing something that goes against the grain? What kind of folks do you find going to your site? What kind of epiphanies are they having?


Ray: Well we see, in home schooling has grown there could be 3 million children being home schooled now. Probably between 2 ½ and 3 million. 70% are even Evangelical Christian most of the rest are Mormons or conservative Jews or people who have a very traditional faith. People who are concerned about the moral tone. They may not be Evangelical but there’s a lot of growth in other groups. Catholics are really embracing home education now. So it’s really been; it’s really exciting to see what’s been happening. Big conventions are being held. We just had two big conventions here in South Carolina that were regional. We had 2,000 families at one.


Bill: Holy cow.


Ray: And they did come from all over, they came from several states North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and even Virginia. It was a well done convention. Ken Hamm was a speaker, Bode Ball came. I had a panel seminar so it was a lot of good Christian speakers. Lot of vendors just flocking in there, we sold our movie Indoctrination we had about 250 sold in two days which is pretty good actually because not everybody’s going to come to our booth. It’s growing. Of course the biggest thing we have right now is the movie Indoctrination and I’m the executive producer of that and I helped fund that and gave some guidance to it. But we had two top notch director/producers Colin Gun is an award winning he’s won some top Christian documentary awards and he’s the director and co-producer with Joaquin Fernandez who did all the filming, most of the filming and the editing and he also works for our ministry so I had sort of a secondary role but I was very involved in it from the beginning. But that movie’s been out now for about 5 months and we had about 16 or 17, 000 copies sold so it is doing very very well all across the country. And it was a pretty low budget and people are ordering one and they turn around a week or two later and order five then a month after that they like it and order ten.

Bill: Sure.


Ray: And they’re distributing it to their pastors and to their churches and showing it. Colin Gun had a tour of the west coast, he was in Washington state and California he was, had a two week tour and was drawing big crowds on very short notice. Was getting large crowds and then he spoke, got an opportunity to address the CA Christian Legislatures. As bad as CA is there is a good minority in the House and the Senate that loves the Lord and are fighting the good fight out there. And he, they showed the film to them I don’t know how many there were. But there was probably could have been a couple dozen. And then they all got a complimentary copy of Indoctrination. HE’s going to be down in Tampa, FL this Friday and Saturday showing, having a premiere or showing to we hope 750-800 people. They’re still signing up and there’s about 40 churches in the Tampa area that are going to stand behind it and help sponsor the movie.

So we’re getting a lot of opportunities and I’m doing some interview on behalf of the movie Indoctrination as I am with you today but Colin Gun is the main director/producer and he’s also the actor in the movie and he’s doing the largest amount of them. But were’ just getting a lot of opportunities with the movie and we think it’s the kind of thing that can really leverage people to abandon state education. Can’t promise that but we created it to extract Christian families from public educational and we think there are millions of families that are just on the edge and they just need a little push and we think that this movie can help do that.

And we found a secondary blessing in the movie that it can immunize or inoculate families who are also outside public education already. They’ve already made that decision to go into Private Christian or home schooling but they’re a little shaky. Their convictions are not deep and strong. they maybe don’t have an abiding biblical or theological rational for what they are doing they just have made a pragmatic choice and this movie can immunize or inoculate them from ever going back into public education we hope and pray. So I’d urge your audience to get it. They can order it from me if they just want a single copy or two and my website is but if they’re interested in a bulk order they should go to Colin Gun and the website for the movie is and that’s one word. Indoctrinationmovie they need to have the word movie in there and they can see a trailer, they can check out some back pages and different interviews that people did and they can make a bulk order but it’s a powerful tool. We had one head chairman of a board of a large Christian school in Gainesville, GA who’s a big support of our ministry and he’s a well to do Christina business man and he ordered 150 copies of the movie and also my book The Promise of Jonadab for each family in the school and they gave it as a gift from the school board to the families in the school for last Christmas.


Bill: Wow.


Ray: There’s things that people can do with this movie that will leverage people and we’ve got a tool that we all agree on. Doug Phillips who’s the president and founder of Vision Form that Indoctrination is the tool we’ve been waiting on for the last 20 years. Also, I needed to mention this. We should have mentioned this earlier. The movie Indoctrination competed, hit the San Antonio Independent Christian Film Festival which is sponsored by Vision Form and we won the top Christian documentary in 2011 and there were some very good entries there. We took first place as the top Christian documentary and we were first runner up to Courageous a real popular Christian movie about fatherhood that’s in a lot of the theaters right now. The movie is well done. Joaquin Fernandez did the editing and he’s a real artist when it comes to editing so it’s a quality production and of course the content message is similar to what we’ve been talking about today in the interview so.


Bill: Yeah and it’s not that pricey. What’s the price of it again, Ray?


Ray: $20.


Bill: $20.


Ray: If you order one. Now if you get multiple copies they decrease, I think three, five copies would be $14 apiece. So they give you breaks for multiple copies but it’s the kind of thing that people are getting and really liking and they’re trying to show it in home school, support groups. Sunday school classes, church workshop services and even in some cases in theatres.


Bill: And if you want to have a showing of it or theatre showing, Ray, they get ahold of Colin and the


Ray: Yeah. You know he’s traveling and doing they can show it without him being there just that he’s going to be in Tampa March 30th and there’s going to be a large showing in the Tampa area and he will be there to speak. You know after the movies done but there was a man in Eastern Pennsylvania and he got a theatre and he did a big advertisement in the community and he just showed it and none of us showed up for it and I think he had several hundred that came. So there different things people can do if their excited. But the point is that we have a tool or weapon that can help leverage the culture with getting our Christian kids out.

If we can get the Christians out of these schools and get them in enough numbers and we think up around 30-35% the system would begin to implode or collapse. It seems to be having a nervous breakdown as we speak and if that were to happen the state may give up education in some areas and it would revert back to the family and to the churches and proper association like it was in American history in the beginning and it was this kind of education that we’re advocating that gave us our great country that we have and we’re losing right now. And maybe we can go back and reconstitute and rebuild our heritage our culture our families through Christian education which was what god designed.


Bill: Well said, Ray. You know it is having a nervous a little bit of a breakdown a nervous breakdown but here’s the thing. It’s going to take a lot of Xanax and it’s going to bill us for the Xanax.


Ray: Right.


Bill: It won’t go down easy. It won’t go down without a fight because it wants to be your God. That’s what everybody needs to understand it’s a control center. It’s a control grid and it really its desire is to take your kids in the morning, to feed them, to have them all day, indoctrinate them, and tell them there is no god. Perhaps feed them supper before they go to basketball practice and then maybe give them back to you at night for a few hours. and you can have them and you can discuss with them and you can go ahead and try to overcome all that with ½ hour of Sunday school Sunday morning and A.A. Hodge he nailed it when he said that it would unleash a whirlwind in effect and it certainly has and we’re seeing the results of it a breakdown in kids that don’t’ know up from down because they have no discipline.


Ray: Right.


Bill: They have no discipline.


Ray: Right now. We describe the public school systems like a prison. Everybody’s in that prison but the difference is the doors are open. The cell doors are open, the prison gates open and they can leave anytime they want right now. Its wide open they don’t have to be there. There may come a day when the state may try to enforce it even more and lock the gates. Right now no person has to be there now it won’t be easy to leave. They’re going to have to figure out how they’re going to pay for a private Christian education, how moms going to stay home and teach the kids at home but they don’t have to stay there. But if we can empty the prison before they lock the gates, we’ll shut down the system.

So we have in our hands not only the destiny of our children, we have the destiny of our country in our hands. The destiny of our churches so the Christians can reset the clock and reset the model by just leaving this system and giving their own children a Christian education. This is the easiest thing that we can do. Everybody’s out there trying to vote and trying to get these people to do things at the top but it can be fixed right in your community so I appreciate you letting me have this opportunity because I know your listeners are probably very sympathetic to these ideas if they would go to my web page at and get in touch with us and if they want to order bulk copies of Indoctrination we urge them to go to Colin Gun’s webpage and that’s


Bill: All right, Ray. Well thanks a lot for spending time. Jeff, thank you for spending time with us today.


Jeff: It was my pleasure.


Ray: Thanks, Jeff.

Jeff: Thank you.

Ray: And Bill, it was great to be with ya’ll.


Bill: Great to be with you as well. And from a listener’s stand point we know your time is very valuable and we really appreciate you spending it with us. Until next time have a great day.

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