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How to end federal tyranny – Episode 014

logoToday’s edition of Off the Grid Radio is absolutely fantastic! Bill Heid and Brian Brawdy interview Thomas Woods, New York Times bestselling author of 10 books, a senior fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute and author of “Nullification: How to resist federal tyranny in the 21st Century”.


Off The Grid Radio
Released: September 17, 2010

Welcome to Off the Grid radio, better ideas to bust you and your family out of today’s global control grid.  Now, here is today’s show.

Brian: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again back to Off the Grid News, and the radio version of our show here at  As always I’m Brian Brawdy along with Mr. Bill Heid.  And you know the announcer said for ways Bill for the listeners of our families to bust us out of the control grid kind of leads us, kind of smoothly in to our guest today who has written a book and I don’t want to give you the title yet until I get his introduction in but the tagline is “how to resist federal tyranny in the 21st century?” So it is an off the grid title.  It is about preparation for things that may very well happen to us in the future.

Bill: That’s exactly right Brian.  We’ve got one of the largest problems that all Americans face is the encroachment of the federal government and so what are solutions we keep trying to vote people in and vote people out, at some point we have to look for other solutions and I think our guest today has one of the best books, one of the best off the grid as we say solutions that I have come across in a long time, so it’s with a lot of pleasure that we have him here.

Brian: And I’ll tell you Bill as I said this as we are getting ready for the show, it’s the first book in the longest time that I have read cover to cover twice.  I read it, turned around went back to page one when I was done because I didn’t want to miss anything and you know me when I read the book I take an ink pen and I underline things and I draw page numbers and my own footnotes and the like and if you look over my book, it’s covered in ink.

Bill: Sure, sure.

Brian: And our author kept me grip the whole time, let’s go ahead and get it to it.  Ladies and gentlemen in a moment you’ll be able to say hello to Mr. Thomas Woods.  He holds a bachelor’s degree in History from none other than Harvard University and his masters and PhD from Columbia University.

He is a senior fellow at the Ludwig Van Mises Institute.  He is the author of ten books, of which one of these is my absolute favorite including the New York Times bestsellers Meltdown and The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History, which I finished just yesterday.

In 2006 he won first prize and a nice little 50 grand check Bill that comes with winning the Templeton Enterprise Awards for his book The Church and the Market and co-edited Exploring American History.  It’s an 11-volume encyclopedia that I was digging pretty much as well.  You have seen him all over TV, Fox News, MSNBC, Glenn Beck Show, The Sean Hannity Show, The Dennis Miller Show, Laura Ingraham, even on NPR, the Morning Edition and On Point.  Ladies and gentlemen it is with great pleasure and on behalf of everyone here in Off the Grid News, that we welcome Thomas Woods, the author of Nullification.  Thomas, how are you sir?

Thomas: I’m doing just fine gentlemen, glad to be here.

Brian: Well, It’s a pleasure to have you.  Bill, as I said the one book of late that I have read cover to cover twice because it was that important a message for our listeners.

Thomas: You’re a good man.  You are model for the world my friend.

Brian: Well, at least if it comes from reading a book then I will go ahead and accept it.  Thank you very much.

Thomas: Well, my pleasure.

Brian: I know a lot of people talk about nullification and believe it or not I have heard it more and more.  I remember a month ago Bill sent me an email going; you got to watch this video.  I think its called interviews or conversations with a zombie.

Thomas: Oh.

Brian: Bill’s smiling and laughing right now, Tom I wish you could see his face.  He’s like no, no, no, whatever you do Brian, stop and watch this video.  Especially or you Bri it’s going to blow you away.  So I have to tell you that was one of my first times of seeing you on camera and now as I have heard your name more and more in what we couldn’t say mainstream media because of some of the places you’re not able to go because of your message but could you give us a thumbnail, catch us up quickly what is nullification and just as important Tom, how can it be used today?

Thomas: Well, this is sort of the $64,000 question right now.  Nullification is Thomas Jefferson’s answer to what you do when the federal government violates the constitution.  And what I’m arguing in the book is that this is not a hypothetical question.  So what indeed do we do and what’s interesting is what Jefferson says we shouldn’t bother doing.  We shouldn’t bother filling law suits against the federal government.  I mean, you know, that could work.  It’s not impossible, but the problem is the federal courts are the part of the problem.  They are part of the federal government.  They are not impartial arbiters.  They are part of the problem.  And they are likely just to rubberstamp whatever the federal government does and of course he is a prophet on that as usual.  So what could we do instead?  Do we just wait for elections?  Well, okay, elections don’t necessarily solve anything.  Sometimes you replace one dufus with another and your liberties are still being violated and the constitution is still being trampled on so what really is the solution?

And Jefferson’s view is that if your politicians are behaving unwisely then you toss them out but if they’re doing something unconstitutional then you have to resist them and nullification is what he means and that’s his form of resistance and it takes place basically like this.  The state, one of the American states, would say, look to the federal government.  Look, you know and I know what has done is unconstitutional.  It’s nowhere in the constitution and so therefore out of respect for the constitution and the state we’re just unable to enforce this law.

In other words the states have to be the arbiters ultimately of constitutionality.  The federal government cannot limit itself.  It won’t limit itself.  The limiting has to come from outside of it.  I mean this is just some sort of common sense.  The limiting has to come from outside of it and the states having been the body that created the federal government in the first place are the natural candidates for that.

Now how can this be used today?  Well, it’s already starting to be used already about five years ago there were two dozen states that when faced with something called The Real Id Act, basically said well we’re not doing this.  This is just not going to happen in our state and ultimately the federal government has had to regroup to try and pass it again and whatever.  It’s really shocked and stunned by that response.

And moreover the medical marijuana issue is an example, the Supreme Court ruled against this, saying you are not allowed to do this, you can’t make an exception to the general drug probation for medical marijuana.  California can’t do it.  Nobody can do it.  The nine circuits said the same thing.  The Justice Department said the same thing and yet California is still doing it.  California, years after those decisions, there were still as many as a 1000 medical marijuana dispensaries in LA County alone.  So in other words, even the Supreme Court ruled against it, they just did it.

And so it goes to show that if there is a determination to resist on the part of the state typically the federal government is fighting 8000 battles already, it will typically want to pursue the path of least resistance and turn its attention on the other 7999.  This at least is my hope.  Because I feel that we have tried everything else.  We’ve tried every conventional approach to eliminate the federal government.  We tried every conventional approach there is.  We’ve held conferences, we voted for this guy instead of that one.  We handed out little pocket constitutions.  We’ve done all these already so my argument in the book is that it’s time to look back in the Jeffersonian Tool Kit and see if maybe there is something we have neglected that Jefferson thought might work.

Bill: Well, Tom, I think you’ve really hit on something in your book where you described how could the Supreme Court and part of the federal government possibly decide an issue between a state and the federal government?  Seems to me that you’re asking them to do something that’s really out of their jurisdiction although it has been common place and as you say in the book, it’s easy to see how the Supreme Court could act as an umpire when two states get into a ruckus against each other on an issue, but the state versus the feds and then the Supreme Court wants to act over top of that and declare ultimacy.  I mean that’s just another version of Hegelian, you know God walking on earth if the Supreme Court actually decides these things, how are they going to side in most cases?

Thomas: Yeah exactly and that was Jefferson’s view and that’s consistently Jefferson’s view throughout his lifetime.  Many people who followed Jefferson adopted that view and you know it’s true you can find it in the constitution something that seems to contradict what I’m saying.  You know article 3 section 2 of the constitution talks about this.  It says the Supreme Court will be assigned certain types of cases, for example, cases involving the United States itself.  But these cases are intended to be things like you know the federal government owes a state a 1000 bucks and it doesn’t cough it up, then the state goes to a federal court and sues them.

This was not meant to include political questions, disputes over the exercise of power.  To whom was the particular power assigned, the states or the federal government?  That question was not to be assigned to the Supreme Court.  Nobody thought it was but precisely, because the Supreme Court would be one of the contending parties.  It would be at least similar to like you and me having dispute and me referring it to my mother.  Now my mother is a fair minded person.  I mean she might even side on you once in a while but I wouldn’t count on it.

Brian: Well, you know I was thinking of a particular page 45 of your book, and just if I could quote you quickly, or you quoting Jefferson “You said that the constitution has elected no single tribunal.  I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves.”

Thomas: Exactly.

Brian: That’s the most powerful quote I read in the book to be honest.

Thomas: People will say when they hear nullification, well who’s the ultimate decider because they feel some sort of a weird comfort knowing that the Supreme Court is the ultimate decider, somebody will decide ultimately.  And if I yank that away from them, they’ll feel you know the sky will fall, the earth will go tumbling toward the sun like everything’s going to collapse and ultimately Jefferson’s answer was well certainly you cannot repose this power of the Supreme Court, you cannot.

The Supreme Court, it’s true it has the responsibility to withhold the constitution but so is everybody – the congress, the president, the states, everybody.  We can’t exclusively grant it to the Supreme Court cause then they will be running the country, a group of unelected oligarchs to be running the country, we cannot have that.  That was Jefferson’s view the whole time so that ultimately if there’s ultimately a dispute that just won’t go away between the states and the federal government, it’s in the hands of the people to make these decisions through nullification and or through the amendment of the constitution to clarify the disputed power.

Bill: Tom this is Bill again, you know I was thinking as you said that, the difference, and this maybe a little off track but we’ll veer it back on track.  You know when the Federalists papers were written for upstate farmers in New York and so forth, those folks were, I don’t want to use the word maybe renaissance men, but those individuals were more complete thinkers and maybe understood this idea of acting as a form of government themselves.

I think today we’ve farmed out so many things via our division of labor.  Have we farmed out all of these things?  It’s almost like farming out our industrial sector, and at some point is it too late?  Can we get it back?  I think part of it is we got to get it back at the citizenry level.  We’ve got to get people to be more complete thinkers to take responsibility for their families for their local communities, for their states, am I going too far off track or is…

Thomas: No, I think that the education system kind of encourages people to have an unthinking confidence in the system and in their rulers, that don’t worry, somebody’s in charge, somebody’s taking care of everything.  You don’t need to worry your pretty little head over anything; you could just watch football and get drunk and wash, rinse and repeat.  You know they don’t have to worry about any of this and that’s why we’ve got a looming entitlement collapse with social security and Medicare and there’s no sense of panic among the population whatsoever even though these programs have to fail, it’s impossible. I mean mathematically this can’t be done.  And yet there is no sense of panic because the general consensus seems to be well, surely someone’s in charge.  You know the experts are in charge.  They’ll take care of all this.

That’s a really dangerous way to think especially when it comes to something like the constitution.  Just to think, well, you know I’m sure the lawyers will set everything right.  I mean what other aspects of our lives do we ever utter those words?  So this is a very dangerous thing and people are sort of outsourcing their political and constitutional thinking to a completely corrupt system.  I mean this is something you need to do.  I mean there’s something to be said to the division of labor, you know you specialize in one thing, I specialize in another.  But when it comes to the protection of your liberties, everybody needs to be if not self sufficient then at least very well informed so that it’s much more difficult to be conned by the political class.

Bill: Well, it seems like if you grant the federal government God-like powers, there’s almost nothing that they can’t do.  So here we are, surprised that I’m looking at the Food Safety Modernization Act S510.  It looks like that’s actually going to be passed and that actually the way I understand it makes taking tomatoes or sweet corn to the church picnic illegal and is it going to take things like this to try to get people – and I remember reading in your book the conscription of minors.  What’s it going to take to shock people into realizing that they have to do what you just said to take responsibility, to take it back?

Thomas: Well, I think just as a strategic point as we are reintroducing the idea of nullification.  We have to realize most Americans, a vast majority, have no idea what it is.  They would be likely have suspicion, they have no idea that Thomas Jefferson, by and large, is the architect of it, this is not some guy from the moon.  This is pretty major figure in our history and that nullification has an honorable history in the US, it is not in fact tied up with disreputable causes.

So because we are reintroducing the concept that is going to be foreign to most people, the issues we apply it to have to be issues where there is a broad consensus among the population that the federal government has overstepped because given nullification in and of itself will be viewed with suspicion.  You can’t immediately use it to somehow try to overturn the income tax or something which is unfortunately now in the constitution.  You have to start piece meal.

So I would start with things like that are unreasonable impositions on organic farming or things with these nature, farmer’s market so the population would view this as just being ridiculous.  Really, I mean what is the federal government do?  Are they going to start throwing farmers in jail?  I mean this is not very good in public relations, right?  They’re trying to spread democracy around the world, but they’re throwing farmer in jail, selling an ear of corn unauthorized?  I mean, come on.

Brian: No, but Tom last week they jacked up an 11-year-old girl in Portland, Oregon, because she did not have the proper paperwork to have a lemonade stand?

Thomas: Well, I thought …

Brian: So it seems to me at least and I would love for you to comment, it seems almost endemic.  There are just certain people you put in power and they’re going to take that power and run with it like the old Pacman games – gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble.  They will gobble up any kind of authority and unfair power that they kept, an 11-year old girl selling lemonade?

Thomas: Yeah, and this is just local government so it’s an important corrective so we remember that we don’t favor nullification because we think angels are running our state and local governments.  It’s not that.  It’s that we want to pit this people.  Pit those sociopaths in the federal government against the sociopaths of the state government and hope as they tangle with each other they’ll leave the rest of us alone.  It’s not that we have some starry eyed view that more local politicians are better.  More local politicians are at least more easily controlled.  I mean I have got at least a prayer of influencing my local state legislator.  I might even know my state legislator; he might actually live on my street.  I’ve got zero chance of influencing US senate.

And incidentally where we used to live in Auburn Alabama, we had somebody on our street who made the most delicious chicken salad I’ve ever tasted. I mean most chicken salads I’ve had are all mayonnaise and whatever, but this is mostly chicken and it was delicious and she got a call within about a month, from the health department, shutting her down saying that she cannot produce chicken salad in her kitchen and sell it because they can’t evaluate the cleanliness of her kitchen.  Now she kept an immaculate kitchen, we all knew that.  We were her neighbors, for heaven’s sake.  We were too stupid to decide whether or not we could buy her chicken salad.

Well obviously what provoked this was not the health department’s concern about my health.  I mean really?  It was that her competitors who made crummy chicken salad were sick and tired of this woman taking all their business so they snitched on her.  That’s what most of this really is all about.  It’s not about my welfare or your welfare, it’s usually about some vested interest using the violence of the state to suppress a dissident and the wonderful happy ending to this story is that she decided, well, the heck with it.  I’m not going to give them the satisfaction; I’m opening my own chicken salad shop.

And she opened her own chicken salad shop.  She now has two locations and I have never seen a business have this much activity.  You can’t find parking, you can’t – it is unbelievable so she had the last laugh.  Okay, you shut me down in my kitchen and now I’m starting my little retail empire so go stick it in your pipe and smoke it.

Brian: Maybe we’ll have you post the address of that place on your Facebook page, Tom, so whenever I’m in town I’ll run and buy one of those chicken salad.

Thomas: Oh, yeah!  Chicken Salad Chick, that’s what she call herself,

Brian: I dig her already.  The next time I’m in that neck of the woods, I will pull in for lunch for sure.

Thomas: Great.

Brian: Tom, if I could ask you another quick question.  It would seem to me you know you talk to people when you say well, Brian, we got a lot of our rights from the constitution and I’m not nearly as articulate or well written as you are, but I try to say to folks when I interact with them that – look, the constitution didn’t give us anything.  They were great ideas.  They were natural laws.  What’s it meant to a remnant that we’ve talked about before in the show of being a human being and the constitution was a great way of just kind of reminding folks that the government needed to recognize those inalienable rights?  Is that a part of the uphill battle for nullification?  Is there an entire group of people who think that the only right you have is what the document gave you?

Thomas: Yeah, this is a bit of a problem because people sometimes speak carelessly and I think sometimes when you correct some of them they realize, yeah, you are right,  I shouldn’t have put it quite that way.  But this isn’t just nitpicking.  I mean it’s not right to say the first amendment gives us freedom of speech, it does no such thing.  It protects your already existing freedom of speech.  If the first amendment gave you the freedom of speech then tomorrow the first amendment could take it away.  They could just amend the constitution and take away your freedom of speech.

Now the idea is that governments are supposed to protect you and your rights that already exist.  And in fact so people are as you’re saying are inclined to look to the constitution and say well let me look and see what my rights are.  Well, let’s see, they talk about freedom of speech, they talk about this so these are all my rights.  But the whole point of the 9th amendment to the constitution which everyone has forgotten.  The 9th amendment exists because you couldn’t possibly list everybody’s rights. Like there is nothing in the constitution that you have the right to start a family.  Where does that say that in the constitution?  Nowhere so the 9th amendment points out that just because a right is not listed here doesn’t mean you don’t have it I mean we’d spend the rest of our lives listing all your rights.

The point is that we are specifically listing the right that governments are most likely to interfere with and assault.  But it doesn’t mean this exhausts all your rights.  I mean the right to have a lemonade stand; the right to have a job are not listed in the constitution.  Well, they’re under the 9th amendment but this has been forgotten and its part of general sort of intellectual malaise and of course the regime likes it this way.  They would like nothing more than a bunch of dufuses whose superstitiously look to Washington DC as the source of their rights, the source of their wellbeing, the source of their economic health, all this stuff.  This is exactly what they want is a docile population that asks no questions, that lets the debates be framed by the New York Times and MSNBC, that is exactly the type of population George III would have loved to deal with and it’s this population that we got to awaken from its slumber if that can indeed be done.

Bill: Well you’ve got a good start here Tom with this and I think what you have done is given the tea party in particular some intellectual teeth to at least engage this battle.  It’s a little different than having folks just cheering for old glory.  Typically that’s what I see and many of our listeners are tea party folks and we’re definitely on that bandwagon but we’ve got to go beyond saluting at the flag when it’s blowing in the wind and we got to say what is that flag symbolic of, what’s behind that, instead of a sort of a mindless approach to my country right or wrong attitude.

So here we are, we’re going to go into November, this is what scares me a little bit.  We go into November some republicans get in and everyone that has read the book, Nullification, now, hopefully, the people that are going to read the book now as a result of our show which we would tell everyone to go buy this book, it’s extremely important as Brian has been saying.  What happens in November when Republicans get in?  Does Nullification, the book, go on the bookshelf and start acquiring dust in all of the tea party libraries?

Thomas: Well, if it does, then the tea party isn’t worth a hill of a beings and they should be ashamed of themselves, I mean really?

Brian: I couldn’t agree with you more.

Thomas: I mean we just had a Scott Brown get elected in Massachusetts.  It was like what was it, three seconds before he turned around and betrayed everybody?  I mean I’m sorry but if you didn’t see it coming, then you haven’t been watching American politics very long.  I mean that guy was basically broadcasting, he might as well named himself, Scott, I’m going to betray you on the 1st possible opportunity, Brown.  I mean how many times can you be stabbed in the back by the same bunch of crooks who just want to get their share of the gravy train and couldn’t care less you know, they couldn’t care less about the pretty speeches they give.

I mean enough is enough, stop, stop letting these people stab you in the back when the wounds of the previous stabbings haven’t even healed yet.  No and we have to move beyond the party thing.  Once in a while you get a decent Republican.  I find most of them are careerist who don’t even believe what they are saying and these days they don’t say the right thing anymore, at least in Reagan’s day he gave good speeches.  We don’t even get good speeches anymore, it’s just horrific.

So I would just remind them that we’re in this for a long haul and if our country were in a situation in which all it took is a few elections that things would be fixed, I wouldn’t even have to write a book called Nullification.  We wouldn’t even need a tea party I mean, you know just a few elections?  Whoa!  Then I guess the country is still in pretty good shape.  No, it’s not; the country’s a complete wreck.  It’s a complete wreck because of both of these parties, there’s no question about that.

So nullification basically says you know, no we’re not going to be scammed by a scam artists like Newt Gingrich, no!  In fact I’m going to make a video one of these days when I’m not so busy.  Which of these Obama policies do you support and then at the end I’m going to show it’s been a trick, they’re all Gingrich’s policies but nobody knows that.  They all think Gingrich is the big right wing, no he is not, he betrays you at every possible opportunity.  He gets up there with John Carey and talks about you know you’re right about global warming and I have been wrong and you and I need to work together.

So in other words I’m going to kick every one of my supporters in the teeth and spit at them and you know what these supporters are still going to support me which indeed they do.  This is ridiculous, at some point you have to say no, you are not going to scam me anymore. So G. Gordon Liddy, when I was on his show, said every tea party person has got to read this book.  He said this is our blueprint for moving forward, it’s got to be.

The election thing, if elections were the solution in 1994 when the Republicans had that major victory that would be the beginning and the end for the overreach of the federal government and what do we get out of that?  Does anybody remember any lasting repercussions of that?  It was nothing, an absolute big zero.  Why do we expect this to be any different?  I mean I like to hear a good answer to that question, why does the tea party people think this would be any different?

Some of the tea party people thankfully are wise enough to see through this and my hat is off to them.  Those are the people I’m talking to.  The rest who just think this is a matter of we will take back our country by voting for candidates Dick Morris approves of, I mean you’ve got to be kidding me, really?

Brian: I know Bill’s got a quick question, but then you would mentioned for me Dick Morris and Newt Gingrich like in the same paragraph, I got to go and take a sip of something, I got to cool off a little bit while Bill is asking his question.

Bill: Let me ask you this Tom, here; let’s make this really practical on this level.  I got a couple other questions but first let’s say that we could wake up old Tommie J. from the crypt and we could get him out on the old campaign trail and let’s say he would secretly go into somebody’s, what do you call Brian these town meetings that they have?

Thomas: Town halls.

Brian: Town halls, those politicians they have the courage to come and…

Bill: Well, right and what do you think Tom – we’re going in to this election and people are going to be campaigning, what would Thomas Jefferson maybe say or ask questions of potential candidates.  Is there some kind of I’m hesitant to do too much reductionist litmus testing but there are some questions that the folks that Tom Jefferson might ask that the folks might ask a candidate and expose this phony-right left hypocrisy.  That’s one of the issues has to just be exposed for what it is so what are some defining questions that might help them do that, that they could go ask potential candidates to find out where they really stand on some of these issues?

Thomas: Yeah sure, well, I think one would be name me three areas of American life that in your opinion the constitution absolutely prohibits the federal government from interfering with, just three.  Where the federal government can’t interfere even a tiny, tiny bit, name me three things.  And they’ll all stammer around, I mean they just won’t know what to stay or this is a suggestion by one of my friends, ask a potential candidate would you be willing to sign a resignation letter before you get elected and the resignation letter would say this, dear constituents, if I ever, even once support and then fill in the blanks, whether it’s a tax increase or whatever a bailout of a bank or whatever, if I ever support fill in the blank then I will immediately resign and if I do not resign then I deserve to be removed from office and I expect my constituents to vote against in the next election.  We’ll see how serious people are if they are willing to sign a resignation letter like that.  You think they would?

Brian: No, because it’s a…

Thomas: But it would be fun to ask.

Brian: It would be great to ask.  It’s a document of like read my lips, no more taxes but one that would be actually held to.

Thomas: Yeah and I mean, then it would be quoted against him for the rest of his life if he ever betrayed it.  The fact is none of this would ever agree to do this which is how you could immediately show how phony they are because obviously if you are really committed to these principles, you wouldn’t hesitate for one second to sign that.  I mean if I were running, I wouldn’t hesitate for one second, I’d do 20 of these, 20 different things that I would never ever in a million years vote for no matter how many fancy dinners they took me out to, I wouldn’t vote for them.

Bill: So here is what I think we can do.  Everybody listening to this can do this.  You go ask these questions, you take your video camera, you film these people with the responses and then you post those, you forward those to your friends, you put them on social networks or whatever.  You hold them in your bank, your library and ask if that politician gets elected and he starts betraying that, you shoot those out again.  I think we can beat this because I know you had mentioned before I think I heard you in and Lou Rockwell talk a while back when the book was first released, the internet’s really shaped the flow of information so we don’t have Walter Cronkite…

Thomas: Cronkite.

Bill: Blessing all of our candidates or instead of a Dick Morrison in the old days and Time and Newsweek and everything, we do have some mechanisms for a while until they’ll take that away from us.  We’ve got to use that wouldn’t you agree there’s some way to use the internet to do this?

Thomas: I mean I think the very initial success of the idea of nullification spreading around is due entirely to the internet.  When I was on NPR, people were saying how come nullification is gaining steam now that we have a black president; I mean you can immediately see where this is going.

Bill: Sure.

Thomas: Because we all stay up at night thinking gosh, and before I go to bed let me think, how can I oppress black people in the (Bleep).  We are all just obsessed with that, right?

Bill: Yeah, right.

Thomas: So and the answer that I’ve basically come to give when the people are upset with Bill (Bleep) in 90s nobody was talking about nullification but the answer was we barely had the internet on those years.  Nobody ever heard at all nullification.  Nobody had a way to know about it.  But now you have a 1000 YouTube’s on the subject.  And this is a subject that you won’t read about in Newsweek, you won’t read about in New York Times, you won’t see in the cable news network with the exception of Judge 0:30:54.0 you won’t even see it on in Fox News, they’re running on the other direction.

You are seeing it because there’s the independent media that is popping up the internet, that’s the difference.  It’s not that we say I love being oppressed by a white guy but if a black guy does it that’s just the last straw, I mean really, this is so stupid.  Do they really think people think like this?  Come on so it’s because suddenly there are different ways of thinking.  People are able to break out of well I either have to be Rush Limbaugh or Hillary Clinton. No you don’t, you actually don’t.  There are other ways of thinking and you can out right Rush Limbaugh and you can out left Hillary Clinton and that’s what Libertarians do all the time.

These types of options that have been kept off the table by the establishment that wants to keep the discussion focused on the most narrow idiotic pointless topics is the most intellectually liberating development certainly, I mean obviously  in my lifetime maybe in all American history for all I know.  Just any old guy, anybody can make a YouTube, you know after figuring out for a couple of hours, you have a lifetime of knowledge now to make YouTube showing up our political class.

There’s a wonderful video called Ben Bernanke Was Wrong and it’s a compilation of clips of the Chairman of Federal Reserve being wrong in every prediction he’s made over the past five years.  Dead wrong and yet the mainstream media still views him with superstitious awe but you know the grass roots types they merely know this guy is a shyster, he’s a phony.  I would in fact be likely to listen to him and do the opposite of what he says and I will be right 100% of the time.  I mean we can do this; no one ever does that before.  We never had the ability to do that and certainly our mainstream supposedly adversarial media, that’s a laugh!  They would never even consider doing it.  All they do in their job is to be a bootlickers of the Ben Bernanke’s and the Hank Paulson’s and the Tim Geithner’s, that’s their job is to be the bootlickers.  Well you know there aren’t that many bootlickers on YouTube and God love it.

Bill: Well you’ve enraged the left and the right, the far right is sort of just swept this under the rug but why do you think it is that folks like Chris Matthews or whoever it is on MSNBC, why do you think they’re just so wildly against this.  It’s almost as if this is well, I guess it’s a little bit on your video that you mentioned that, the zombie video.  What is it that makes them so crazy about this?

Thomas: I mean supposedly it’s their unquenchable thirst for justice and they feel like you know segregation will come back if we have nullification for reasons I’ve talked about elsewhere it is impossible to imagine.  It’s obviously not going to happen; this is not Birmingham 1963 anymore.  Blacks have the right to vote now and they are moving to the south and have been moving to the south for 25 years.  I mean it’s a completely different world, so it can’t actually be that. This is actually an example of people getting uppedy – people adopting an idea that was not presented to them by the political class and this can’t be allowed anymore than Ross Perot could be allowed.

Now I didn’t particularly like Ross Perot, I thought he blew his opportunity, I thought he was too conventional.  I mean you got all that money, get out there and say unconventional things, but the establishment just joined together to attack him because here he is an un-owned guy, the new republic compared him to Hitler.  Hitler, Ross Perot compared to Hitler, that’s the way the establishment always reacts to unapproved people and unapproved ideas.  You know we are not supposed to have our delicate ears soiled by ideas that haven’t been first vetted by New York Times.  Well, you know what the people don’t care about what the New York Times think, they don’t.  The New York Times is on its way out of our society mercifully.

So it’s a matter of Chris Matthews has plugged into the whole establishment, DC gravy train and anything that threatens that, well he and his buddies immediately instinctively march and walk, step against.  He’s going to smear anybody who’s against it.  If you are arguing with him about should we have the healthcare plan or should we modify it in some way, well he’s willing to have that debate because the New York Times has allowed us to have that debate.  But if you bring up something on your own that hasn’t been previously vetted, it leads to this visceral reaction and the beautiful thing is people like Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann and all these sorts of types if you put them all together the amount of history they know could fit inside a half of thimble, so one of the things that my book, Nullification, does that in a short read, it gives you all the information you would ever need to win any argument you would ever have with a Chris Matthews or a follower of Chris Matthews.  They don’t know any of this stuff.  They don’t know it and you can pull this stuff out of your hat and win.  It’s not like this is all about winning debates and high score points on the guy the point is if we are going to have any success we have to be persuasive.

And I wrote Nullification because I saw the tea party people, some of them were serious.  They were posting my videos on nullification.  They were talking about it.  They were saying we need to consider unconventional approaches now that the conventional ones have failed.  Well, I thought these people will be going to be smeared by all the Chris Matthews of the world.  They’re going to have all these unjust accusations made against them.  I want to give them all the ammunition they need to defend themselves so that they can strike about and make advances.

Brian: Tom, in addition to giving this bill, the tea party some teeth and giving them as you just said the ammunition to strike back, can you talk to us briefly because it sure seems to me like the governor of Florida could be listening, the governor of Arizona could be listening.  I hear yesterday that perhaps the legislator in Colorado could be listening so in addition to giving the tea party teeth you’re helping to give some politicians a sense of courage.  Because of Nullification, and your video and conversations with the zombie and your book take off, do you find more and more politicians calling you going, hey Tom you got to hook me up.  What do I have to do in order to be able to get out in front of this and can I really win this battle if I pulpit the cause of Nullification.

Thomas: Well, the book is still fairly new but I am talking to a good number of state legislators, in fact I have a conference call with some guys in one of the bigger states later on today and I understand there’s a governor who is a governatorial candidate, I’m not even sure if I’m supposed to say, I don’t know if he wants to keep it a secret, in a sort of major state who is wholeheartedly for nullification.

And just the other day, I heard a video of the Republican nominee for Attorney General of Connecticut come out and say – now first I thought she was going to give the conventional, yeah I favor and I also want to file lawsuits about the healthcare bill.  She did say that and I thought alright, well, that’s conventional enough but it’s at least something, and then she said “and I also favor legislative efforts to nullify unconstitutional federal laws.”  I couldn’t believe that.  No one has talked like this in, I don’t know, like in a century.  I have no idea.  And there she is just as clear as day saying it.  Even if she doesn’t believe it, I do actually believe her.  I think she’s genuine.  But the fact that somebody would make the political calculation that it sells to say that we have to stand up to unconstitutional federal laws.  That means that there really is a change going on in the political class and it could even be that they just see this themselves and they want to say it.  And even if they don’t follow through on it that just means that public opinion is shifting enough that they can get away with it well that’s an advance in itself.

Brian: And I would say that your book takes, you’re too nice a guy too brag about it, but I would say that there are politicians out there that never would have even known the nullification word had it not been for your book and as you say the internet helping people even shows like ours, just spreading the message to our friends about what’s going on, I thinly your book is the root of that.

Thomas: Yeah, exactly, the NBC and General Electric are not going to feature your show so the internet is what liberates us and liberates listeners to have access to this sort of thing and I’m happy to say that there’s an organization that is sponsoring an initiative after the November elections when there is a whole new slate of state legislators an initiative to get a copy of Nullification into the hand of every state legislator in the US, not only because it will give them ideas but also because that in itself is a newsworthy thing and that helps to promote it.

Bill: So how can people learn more about that?  I think you just touched on another tool.  I mentioned let’s go to these folks, let’s ask them hard hitting questions, but right there you’ve got another tool.  How can people get involved in that?  How can they get involved in that in their state?  How can they send a copy of this book?  Are there groups or state groups forming?  Is there anything we can do to facilitate that?

Thomas: Well, that particular initiative is going to be rolled out probably in early 2011 so we will just stay tuned on it but in the meantime I do want to recommend a couple of the places people should go, the first one is the Tenth Amendment Center.  There is a guy who you’ll have a wonderful time talking to, Michael Boldin, B-o-l-d-i-n from California –, 10th spelled out as a word, t-e-n-t-h,  I mean this site is unbelievable, not only is it a blog, article or podcast but he’s got a legislative tracking page where you click on it and it has a map of the United States and then a list of all the nullification initiatives and how they are working their way through the state and its color coded.  You know in this state, a nullification bill has been introduced.  In this state it passed one house in the legislature.  In this state it passed both of them.  In this state it has been signed into law, on all these different topics so it is very, very useful.  It’s a wonderful service he is providing to mankind so has state chapters.  There’s a Colorado Tenth Amendment Center, a Florida Tenth Amendment Center so that’s an easy way o get involved at the local level.  Find your local Tenth Amendment Chapter and enjoy it.

Secondly I would recommend a page that I put up, just an informational page like you want to summarize this for your friends but you want to do it in a way that it’s brief, that they’ll actually read, they’ll understand.  So I did a page called  Just go to  Just explains it briefly, it has some links elaborating on it.  It’s got some videos.

And then I guess a third thing because you’ve been mentioning it, my interview with a zombie because we all know you talked about the powers of the states and immediately they assume you are a sinister person and then you want to enslave people.  I mean it’s absurd and I can’t believe there’s anyone who would actually believe that but apparently there are.  So I did it, I did something called Interview with a Zombie, which is a staged little video I did sort of implying that this is what it would be liked to be interviewed by Chris Matthews or somebody at MSNBC on this topic.  I have a guy dressed up as a zombie.

Brian: It’s a great video by the way, Tom.  Let me interrupt, great video.

Thomas: Thank you.

Brian: Fantastic video.

Thomas: People can view this video very easily by going to – I actually purchased the domain name, and believe it or not that domain name was available so I bought it. you get right to the video.  It’s has an awful lot of views.  Tens of thousands of views, at least 50,000 I think and the idea of it is that this zombie has his own television talk show and he interviews authors and he is interviewing me and every time I make a substantive point with real arguments, real information.  All he can do is throw out words like confederate, slavery, racism where all the sorts of words that the left uses to try to destroy peoples careers and try to shut down arguments before they got started.

So in a way I’ve launched a preemptive strike against people who would do that to me by casting them as zombies and so when I do get attacked, my friends in the comment section can just link to this video and it shows aren’t you kind of acting like zombie?  You’re not actually going to have an argument with me.  You’re just going to throw a word at me and expect me to go away?  Well I’m not going away.  I have a lot to say.  And it’s wonderful because I was actually attacked by; I don’t want to mention his name, a former low level Reagan administration official who has since become an Obama supporter.  The poor guy has spent his whole career trying to be loved.  And no one ever loves him like he supports Reagan, they don’t love him.  He turns on Bush; they don’t love him for that.  He supports Obama and they still don’t love him.  I just feel bad for this guy, he’s in middle age and he is unloved.

You know you are in the wrong business if you want to be loved in politics.  Anybody who is loved is probably a bad guy anyway.  Anyway this guy attacked me not in a very high profile way but he did attack me and it sort of suggest that I must have sinister intentions in all this, without actually making an argument or showing where I’m wrong or whatever.  Not actually addressing me just trying to smear and destroy me it doesn’t work anymore because all my friends immediately and I didn’t even know about this, they just told me later, in his comments section, they immediately said, hey you zombie.  What are you doing, you zombie?  The poor guy didn’t know what hit him?  He’s like what.  What’s going on?  Everybody’s linking into the video and so they nailed him.

Brian: Well Tom we know it here because we’ve got called fear mongerers, I mean some of the stuff that we’re called for trying to spread the message so we kind of know what you mean.

Thomas: You guys can have your own interview with a zombie.  Well here you are making legitimate points about real life scenarios and all you’ll be told conspiracy theories, instead of actually, we’ll look I got some evidence here and I really like you to evaluate it, that never happens.  Instead the object is to smear and destroy you and make you seem reprehensible to people.  That’s the object to this and we can fight back now, especially we fight back with humor.  Because the zombie thing is just perfect and that’s exactly how you would be interviewed by Keith Olbermann but yes Keith Olbermann doesn’t have the excuse of being a zombie at least as far as I know.

Bill: You know I was thinking as you were talking Tom, about I think it’s Thomas Kuhn’s book, The Structure of Scientific Revolution.  You probably read that book and he talks about how it takes a while and he is mostly mentioning scientific issues but sometimes it takes a while for paradigms to change and I was thinking if you were to ask my grand kids.  Now my grand kids actually practice this and so that maybe we sped this up but if you would ask my grand kids who live in Alabama, if you say they actually sit around with each other and one of them would say, but it’s in the constitution.  And the other one will go racism so they’ve already picked it up.

Thomas: Yeah.

Bill: This younger generation under 10, under 12, they already kind of get it, what’s going on so your videos already spread from the top all the way down the bottom.  The little kids are repeating the things that you’re saying so it’s awesome.

Thomas: That is exactly my goal I mean the video has worked just as I wanted it to.  And it’s very professionally done.  I’ve got an excellent media guide.  I got a professional audio book and radio host to actually do the voice over welcome thing, like welcome to the Interview with a Zombie.  The whole thing just comes up so beautifully.  I’m so thrilled at how it was done and you’re right.  I think there are more and more kids who they just fall for the propaganda that they’re getting from their school and they don’t believe it.  And in particular they know when they hear an argument being made, and one side is actually pointing to evidence and using logic and the other side is just trying to smear the person and destroy him, well you know eventually you catch on to that.  You say no wait a minute.  Now, I’m starting to have a suspicion that you actually don’t have any answer to this guy.  You know I’m starting to pick up on this.  You’re actually just a smear artist who hasn’t bothered to read anything and thinks he can substitute for learning just a series of career destroying insults.

Well, they don’t always destroy careers anymore precisely because people pick up on things.  They hear racism and they just yawn because they know that most people are people of good will who do not have some gratuitous desire to hurt other people.  The federal government has no business talking about people wanting to hurt other people.  The federal government is the greatest killer in the country’s history is the government itself and for them to lecture us on toleration and sensitivity is a bit rich.  You have your bad people.  We all know that.  But the average guy who lives next door to you who belongs to the tea party is not one of these people and given how big the tea party is getting so that every American knows at least somebody who is involved in it, every American knows, we’ll look this guy is fine.  There’s nothing wrong with this guy.  He doesn’t hate anybody.  What’s the matter with Chris Matthews?  I say the more people accused of racism, the better because then the more absurd the thing looks.  I mean it destroyed enough careers already.

Brian: And you know it’s just that true enough that after today when someone said, well, isn’t it all about state slavery and the like, and I go yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re right. That’s what it is all about and they’re going to take away the women’s right to vote.

Thomas: Yeah.

Brian: It’s like really a big time machine with this book.  You’re going to grab this book like a big time machine, be transported all the way back to a time and the other ones are going to go back too.

Thomas: It’s incredible that people could think after 40 years of legal and moral penalties we still have states that are on the verge of bringing back segregation at the first opportunity.  You could be living on that much of a dream world that you could be that much emotional hypochondriac shows the type of brainwashing that still goes on.  The federal government is our great protector.  They will protect you from the wicked states so on and on.  I mean really this is unbelievably absurd that this would pick up, that this would have any effect.  I’ve actually said in the air if in the next 50 years nullification is used to bring back segregation I will make $100,000 donation to the charity of the left favor a $100,000 in today’s money so that I’m not actually secretly trying to wiggle my way out of it through inflation, because it’s not going to happen.  There is no way it’s going to happen.

I already indicated some reasons why but we should also bear in mind that in American history when you look at what was nullification used for?  Was it used to defend slavery?  No, to the contrary, if you look at South Carolina’s ordinance of secession, December 28, 1860, what’s one of the complaints that lead to the southern secession?  They are sick and tired of the north nullifying laws.  They are sick and tired of the north nullifying the fugitive slave law that requires them to return runaway slaves.

Now that is in the constitution but that does not mean the federal government can do absolutely anything whatsoever to return runaway slaves and the North’s argument in particularly some states like Wisconsin were saying that we are not going to let our citizens be subject to potential kidnapping without giving them a jury trial.  We’re not going to let somebody come into our state and say, here’s the physical description of the slave that ran away and hey that guy kind of looks like him, I’m going to take him, no.  That seems to be just a tinsy-winsy bit open to abuse.  We’re going to afford them these procedural safeguards.  We’re not going to let it happen to our people.  So the north in fact Wisconsin quoted Jefferson quoted his Kentucky Resolution of 1798 in which he called for nullification.  They quoted this in the 1850s and they side with Jefferson in nullification in Calhoon and all these people and said we have the absolute right to do this because the states have to keep the federal government in check.  So we have that.  We have Jefferson calling for nullification to support the freedom of speech.

The New England state used it to fight against the prospect of military conscription.  They used it to fight unconstitutional search and seizures.  I mean it’s been used for honorable purposes throughout the history of the republic, but this history that I’ve just sort of run through quickly has completely fallen down the Orwellian Memory Hall.  You’re not going to read about it.  You’re about as likely to read in your history books that I, Tom Woods, am the King of England than you are to read any of this, you are not going to hear it because the narrative the federal government wants is that the states are wicked and the only reason that anyone would devolve power to the states is to oppress people.  They will not mention any of the noble history of the powers of the state, none of that.  So the idea then gets fixed in the citizenry’s head that the states are sinister.  The federal government is our protector from the state.  So, therefore we’ve got to keep the gravy train going.  We’ve got to keep sending money to the federal government.  We’ve got to not question it because without them we’ll we’d be subject to a government of Alabama once again and we can’t have that.  That’s the way they’ve got to have everybody think in order to keep the Gravy train running and I think some of the wheels are starting to come of that gravy train.

Brian: And I would say that your book again Thomas done a great job of helping hopefully the wheels won’t come off of the gravy train but we can jackknife the gravy train at the same time.

Thomas: Yeah you got it.

Brian: Like you said which is why the issues about the transparency of the internet what’s going to go on with the web.  Will people still be able to exercise their right to say what they want?  It’s kind of like a 1,2 punch because the concept of nullification as it reenters in the citizenry’s mind has got to be one things that folks in power and the federal government are starting to fear now.  They’ve got to be looking this as well and going, holy cow, what are we going to do to beat this idea back?

Thomas: I hope so, but they may realize at the same time that it’s still a hard sell.  I mean I don’t have a Rush Limbaugh behind me supporting this; it’s still a hard sell.  But what’s interesting is the people I do have behind me.  If you look on the back cover, we have got the sit in host for Rush Limbaugh is Walter Williams who is much better than Rush, of course.  Walter Williams is a professor of economics at George Mason University, super smart and hilarious, great guy.

I’ve got Judge Andrew Napolitano from Fox News who is the honorable guy over there.  And I got Barry Goldwater Jr. who is himself is a former congressman.  These are not nobody, I mean this is substantial that you would get people of this stature coming out and supporting this.  So we do have that but we still have very much an uphill battle and we do have that and I’m happy to report also that the Tenth Amendment Center is sponsoring a series of events, big time events across the country, called Nullify Now.

So there are a few sites I want to send people to here,,, and finally  They are going to have a bunch of cities, they’ve got four city scheduled.  They started with Fort Worth in early September and then it’s on to Orlando on October 10th.  You got to do something on October 10th because October 10, 2010 is 10-10-10.  If you don’t have a tenth amendment event on that day, you’re a complete idiot.

Brian: Yeah, that calls for a tenth amendment bash; you know there’s no way around that.

Thomas: And they’re going to be in several other cities and the idea is that these would be big events, high profile, hundreds and hundreds of people, but what is especially interesting is that the one in Orlando, October 10th, it’s just been announced that Gary Johnson will be one of the speakers.  Now for some of your listeners I want to make clear who he is.  Gary Johnson, the former governor of New Mexico, two-term governor.  He was a Republican in a 2 to 1 Democrat state and he vetoed more bills than all other governors put together – unbelievable record and he got reelected on this basis.  I would say it is a 99% certainty he’s going to run for President in 2012.  So we have a guy who is a very successful two-term governor and who’s a presidential candidate and who is speaking out on a nullification rally.  Again, I think that is significant.

At some point, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are not going to pretend that this is not happening anymore.  They are going to have to address it one way or another.  Right now they are just ignoring this topic entirely.  But you know we’ve got some people of stature jumping on board and I think more will jump on board and once the thing really takes off then you know as the bandwagon is driving away, Dick Morris will be huffing and puffing to catch up and leap on board and pretend that he’s been the driver along, you know what I mean.

Brian: Absolutely.  Hey Tom, I know I want to be respectful to your schedule and we promised we will just keep you for the hour and I want to mention then to the folks that the 10-10 in 10 is going to Orlando.  I think you sparked me into a little road trip.  I think I just might come down and join you there.  But I’m also going to look to see you Tom at Indiana University on September 21st of 2010.  You’re going to be at Bloomington, Indiana at the university there and that’s another event that I hope to be able to attend here on a short time.

Also I wanted to let folks know, please visit as I do often the as Tom said, but also and you want to pick up his book.  You’ll notice it as soon as you see it, big red Nullification letters across the word Nullification, big red letters, across the cover.

Bill: Hey Brian, hey Brian, can I interrupt?

Brian: Sure.

Bill: They have to pick up three or four books.  Here is why, real quickly.  They have to give one for their sheriff and they ought to give it to some of the hands of their state reps.  So just don’t buy one for yourself.  We got to let people know what’s going on.

Brian: That’s a great point and the ultimate marketer and Bill is always out ahead of me in there.  Pick up as many copies as they have left on the shelf.  You’ve heard Tom, had a chance to speak here.  You can tell he’s a good guy.  He is not the zombie in the interview with the zombie if you haven’t seen it yet.  He’s the good guy.  He’s the guy on our side.  So if you have a chance also check him out in, Barnes and Noble and also in your Facebook page Tom, I’ve hooked up with you there as well, visit Thomas Woods on Facebook.

Mr. Woods, we cannot thank you enough for giving us the hour today and we didn’t even go to one commercial break because we wanted to learn as much from you as we could.  So thank you, we know it’s a busy time in your life.  Thank you so much for your time.

Thomas: My pleasure gentlemen, I enjoyed it very much.

Brian: Alright ladies and gentleman, we’re going to go ahead and take one final break and then we will be back here at Off the Grid News, the radio version of our show here at

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Brian: Welcome back once again I’m Brian Brawdy here at, the radio version of our show here as always with Mr. Bill Heid.  Bill, I’ll tell you a couple of back-to-back interviews with some big names, both of which brought to our listeners with limited commercial interruptions, just because the information was so important, we wanted to get it out.  But I thought you know, kind of as a recap of the show, we could talk about our time today with Thomas Woods.  His energy certainly reminded me of Gerald Selente in an earlier show that we did.  Just a passionate guy, but he knows his stuff.

Bill: He knows his stuff in an amazing cause that needs to be developed in a small way from the ground up.  That’s the way the founding fathers developed causes they did not do things top down, that was George III’s gig – was doing things top down.  We need to do things from the bottom up, which means, we organize ourselves, our families, our communities, our churches, whatever, and then we go to state government and so forth, our sheriffs and things like that and so I said, let’s try to get this books in the hands of, you know, don’t bother sending President Obama this book.  That’s a waste of time and effort.  He’s going to have a big book burning party or something, but, you need to get this on the hands of people that you know.  First of all, people you know.  You know your local sheriff, your mayor of your town; let’s get the concept out there.

But I wanted to tell you about something else as I was reading Professor Wood’s book.  What happened in the midst of that is I received a phone call from someone in my family about an issue that I thought is so far off the wall that it couldn’t be true and it was from someone in my family who is in the banking business and they were sitting at a meeting with the president of this bank and some others and they were worried about something and I said, “Well, you know, what were you worried about?  What’s going on?  And you’ll never believe this.  He said, “We think we’re going to have to put in transgender bathrooms.”  And I said, “Transgender bathrooms?  I’m not sure for people that have had operations with that, I think a few will have a sexual transfer to being something else, you would use the restroom for your most recent operation, wouldn’t you think that, that’s what you would probably do, I mean, you know, but apparently, there’s some, if you’re a federal contractor and here’s how they play this game out.  If you’re a federal contractor, for example, like a bank, when you first get your banking charter, you’re required at the state level; you’re required to have FDIC insurance.  Alright so follow this, so now, once you followed the only mandate, you can start a bank, you’ve got to insure your deposits, right?

Brian: Yes.

Bill: So, once you do, you’re a federal contractor.  Now, this will only start these things.  Once they start these things what they do at the federal level is they’re starting to ask federal contractors and their subcontractors, you take any federal money, you’re involved in the federal government in any way, shape or form, you’ve got to comply with some of these new regulations and they’re actually concerned at these banks about having to put a third bathroom in for people that don’t know what they are.

Now, we can laugh about some of those things because it seems like it’s not really part of where middle America is and so forth, but this is something that’s just right out of the Thomas Woods’ horror story book because this is a part of a federal encroachment of federal tyranny, and the reason I bring this up, I’m not on some big thing against transgender people today, I’m, just saying that this is just another example of government just going wild, literally going wild.  And is there anything that they can’t do?  In Thomas’ book, he talks about drafting young kids for the war and some of the states, I’m not sure how young they were, but some of the states just said, “No, you’re not going to draft a 13-year-old or 14-year-old kids to fight in Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan, or wherever the war was, whichever situation that was at the time.  So at some point, you’ve got to say no and at some point, you’ve got to start figuring out, you know, Bob Marley said, if you knew you’re history, you would know where I’m coming from.  Remember that in Buffalo Soldiers?  “You’ve got to know your history so that you can know where all of this is coming from.”

And I would just mention a couple of sites and a couple of products that we have that I think that are worthy of investigation that are, which John Eismo takes you through the constitution.  You’ll win any debate certainly, you’d win a debate with low levels like Chris Matthews, but you’ll win any debate at any level I guarantee you if you purchase that program and master it.  He does just a wonderful job linking the constitution and the Bible and taking it through the entire constitution and giving new roots of it.

And in addition to that Brian, I would say, in addition to the, I would also say another important thing that I worked on was a product called The Only Way Back, The Only Way Back and that thinking is “how can we get back?”  So in that program, we examined the preconditions that brought the constitution about?  So what was the governing zeitgeist in the colonial period that brought us the constitution?  What were they thinking about?  It didn’t just hatch out fully orbed in that conditions, there was a mindset in the colonial period that produced the constitution and I think, we’ve got to go back and look at that, because it just gives somebody a piece of paper, you have nothing and let me elaborate a little bit on that.  Today, we’re going – I’m going to date this a little bit, I shouldn’t do this, but I’m going to date this – we’re leaving Iraq, or at least, we’re on.

So, what have we done and play this a year from now and just, you know, don’t smile, you’ll cry.  We’ve left them a piece of paper, we’ve tried to give them some sort of constitution, but you’re giving people a constitution that don’t have a mindset that can deal with the constitution.  So, a year from now, you want me to make a prediction what Iraq will look like a year from now?  A horrible warzone beyond what Shiites-Sunni conflict against each other, with Iran, trying to push for influence with no common laws and no common ideas that the people have, but hell on earth.  That’s my prediction from here.

So, that’s what happens when you give people a piece of paper that don’t understand the preconditions of intelligibility for that piece of paper.  So, those are my comments.  You really need the founder’s plan and this is just an outright pitch – get it and get one for your family and surely you’ll get the only way back, you’ve got to know what the founder’s believe, you’ve got to know what really created the constitution to begin with if you’re going to engage in this argument which everyone should.

Brian: Well, you know, I think a lot of people can get into trouble and we get into trouble as a whole because we have this belief that this constitution is some document, it’s housed, protected in a building in Washington, D.C., and doesn’t affect our daily lives.  But I keep going back to this; you’re an 11-year-old girl, that gets jacked up because you have a lemonade stand that brings the constitution front and center into your life.  So, those are great ideas, I’m glad we get a chance to tie it all together especially today as the recap a limited commercial addition of our show because Bill wanted to make sure that everyone had the opportunity to hear about Thomas Woods, the author of many books, but also Nullification.

We’re going to go ahead and wrap it for today. I just wanted to remind you as always, please send us your emails, send us your critiques of our show with questions, with suggestions for future guest even.  Please, go ahead and send them to us at [email protected], that’s [email protected].  Of course, you can find us on Facebook at and of course also follow us on twitter@offgridradio, that’s on twitter@offgridradio.  Thank you so very much, we know you’re time is very valuable.  We really super appreciate you giving a little bit of it to us.

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